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Announcement :: UCIMC |
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UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
Current rating: 0 |
by Paul Riismandel
Email: mediageek (nospam) gmail.com (unverified!)
Address: PO Box 2102, Champaign, IL 61820 |
23 May 2005
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The UCIMC's Video Group met for an emergency meeting on May 22 in order to draft a statement in response to the problems and controversy that have arisen regarding a statement, about the UCIMC's position in the global Indymedia network, made May 9 at a press conference announcing the UCIMC's purchase of a new building.
This is the statement that the volunteers at the emergency Video Group meeting consented to. |
May 22, 2005
We, the listed members of the UCIMC Video Working Group, consent to
the following statement of apology regarding the recent statement made
by Sascha Meinrath at a press conference announcing the purchase of
the UCIMC's new building:
"There's [sic] over 150 Independent Media Centers in 50 plus countries
worldwide. And this IMC here in Urbana-Champaign is the umbrella under
which the entire global network operates. We are in essence the global
headquarters for the Indymedia movement, here in Urbana."
We can speak only for ourselves.
We did not write or give prior consent to this statement made by Mr.
Meinrath (hereafter, referred to as just "the statement"). However we
accept our collective responsibility for it having been said and
communicated, and believe it is our responsibility to respond and
repudiate that statement.
We feel the need to stand up specifically on this issue in solidarity
with other IMC volunteers nationally and internationally. We have
worked in solidarity with other IMCs and IMC activists around the
world in the past. We intend to work to repair the trust that may
have been betrayed by this statement so that we may be able to work in
solidarity once again. We take seriously the concerns of our fellow
IMC volunteers and their criticisms of the statements and actions of
the UCIMC.
We stand by the UCIMC reporter who documented the statement, in that
the statement was actually said, and his reporting of that quote was
accurate. We offer no excuses for the statement, regardless of the
context in which it was made.
We disagree fundamentally with the statement, and do not believe that
it is true in reality or in effect.
We apologize for this statement made at the press conference.
We do not want to view the UCIMC as the headquarters of the Indymedia
network, nor do we wish it actually to be the headquarters of the
network. We do not believe the UCIMC deserves to be headquarters of
the Indymedia network, and nothing justifies or merits the belief or
appearance that we are. We do not believe UCIMC can or should be the
headquarters of the network.
We are very sorry that the statement was made, and that no immediate
correction to or retraction of the statement was made. We apologize
for the impression that it has made to the world that the members of
the UCIMC collective believe ourselves to be the headquarters of the
Indymedia network. Further, we take responsibility for having allowed
the statement to be made and not immediately corrected.
We recognize that this statement has caused outrage and sparked
distrust of UCIMC in the Indymedia network. We are making this
statement out of respect for this. We wish to thank the IMC volunteers
from around the world who sent email directly to the UCIMC's email
list and therefore made it clear to the UCIMC collective, as a whole,
the impact the statement had, and the damage it has caused.
We are especially concerned about the impression this statement made
to IMC volunteers working outside of the US.
We recognize that the UCIMC enjoys tremendous privilege as a result of
the resources and support given by our local community. We also
recognize that this privilege stems from the immense and
disproportionate wealth that we have in the US that results from the
oppressive military and economic policies of our government. That
privilege does not equal merit of any kind. It does not mean that the
UCIMC has or should have any position in the global IMC network except
as just another IMC.
We especially regret that the idea that the UCIMC is the headquarters
of the global Indymedia network evokes US imperialism and hegemony.
We believe that most UCIMC members do not know the details of the
UCIMC's financial relationship with other organizations and IMCs. We
are responsible for our own ignorance.
An ad hoc group of UCIMC members is now documenting all aspects of the
UCIMC's financial relationships, which it is scheduled to have
finished by June 2, 2005. We expect that this documentation will be
complete, transparent, and published to the world.
We also believe that most UCIMC members are ignorant about the global
IMC movement. By and large we do not know how IMCs from around the
world interact and how decisions of global importance are made.
We, the UCIMC Video Working Group, will work to better inform
ourselves, and our fellow UCIMC members, about other IMCs and the
global IMC network. We will join global working groups and encourage
other UCIMC members to do so.
Finally, we reiterate our apologies to all Indymedia activists,
contributors and volunteers around the world for our ignorance of
global issues and our inaction, which led to this statement being made
and standing uncorrected and unaddressed for more than two weeks.
Again, we thank IMC volunteers from around the world for contacting
UCIMC directly to alert us to the impact, effect and damage this
statement, and the UCIMC's lack of action has caused.
We wish to stand in solidarity with Indymedia activists around the
world. We regret the damage the has been done to the trust between
UCIMC and other IMCs, and we pledge to work to repair that damage
however we can.
Signed,
Paul Riismandel, Dave Powers, Dave Berliner, Randall Cotton, Bob
Illyes, Colleen Cook |
This work is in the public domain. |
Comments
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by one of the someones
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
23 May 2005
|
Hi!
Thank you for this statement. It is much appreciated by folks (like me) who critized the statements made (about the "headquarter" ect.).
We know that alot of emails and postings on the newswire weren't that nice and unfair for some of you.
Anyway, this gesture by the ucimc video group will repair some distrust within the network against ucimc and so again, thanks. |
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What DOES the UCIMC do for IMC Global? |
by Paul Kotheimer
herringb (nospam) prairienet.org (unverified) |
Current rating: 0
23 May 2005
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My understanding of the actual relationship between UCIMC and IMC Global is this:
The UCIMC Finance group, using the UCIMC's 501c3 status, co-ordinates tax-deductible donations to IMC Global from donors in the USA.
If this is the case, it seems like the solution to the controversy might be a SEPARATE 501c3 called "IMC Global," which is neither co-ordinated from Urbana nor affiliated with the UCIMC in any way.
From what I understand, this is easier said than done--There's on the order of 100+ hours of meticulous paperwork and follow up with the IRS to be done.
Who wants to do this paperwork? Not me.
Who already has done this paperwork here at the UCIMC, whether it was "on behalf of" IMC Global, or "as a general service" to any IMC anywhere that wants to collect donations in the USA and offer tax-deductibility to USA taxpayers?
Sascha Meinrath, for the most part, from what I understand.
Who will take on the task of forming that SECOND IMC-related 501c3 so that the heat can come off of Urbana and Sascha?
Step right up, IMC-sta's! The assignment's on the table. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by Ellen Knutson
radicallibrarian (nospam) gmail.com (unverified) |
Current rating: 0
23 May 2005
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I was not at the video group meeting when this statement was written, but I would like to add my name as another UCIMC member who fully supports the video group's statement of appology.
Regardless of any legal or financial agreements that may exist the UCIMC simply is not, nor could or should it be the "global headquarters of indymedia movement."
Ellen Knutson |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by hmmm
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
23 May 2005
|
Apparantly the person who made the inaccurate, wildly boastful statement in the first place can't apologise for themselves. Nice.
I'm going to go feed the cat and water my plants. Would Sasha like to take credit for that as well? |
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why indymedia works |
by DeeDee
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
23 May 2005
|
because despite the understandable but regretable hubris with the take over of a major government building, this eloqent and thoughtful statement has been deliberated and this discussion can take place.
Because the global community reacted with understandable concern.
Because these discussions can take place on indymedia and somehow we always go back to some very basic issues. |
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Video group actually does something |
by leopoldhabermash
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
23 May 2005
|
Of course it's not making media, but why quibble.
It's good to know that these people actually have an opinion, since they've never voiced it in the 6+ years this discussion has been going on, to my knowledge.
I thank Sascha for his (in my experience) unparalled devotion to indymedia. I hope a certain very few UC members don't twist and exploit this in acting on what is clealy a habit of trying to tear down the best assests in the CU community and for the larger progressive movement.
Make some media, people. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by :)
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
23 May 2005
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thanks from barcelona
i trust you, video group imc-uc, again :)
i wait for shacha to make something similar... |
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Declaraci贸n de Disculpa del Grupo de TrabajodeVideo de UCIMC |
by UCIMC Video Group
Imc-video (nospam) lists.ucimc.org (unverified) |
Current rating: 0
23 May 2005
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Declaraci贸n de Disculpa del Grupo de Trabajo de V铆deo del UCIMC
22 de mayo de 2005
Nosotros, los miembros firmantes del Grupo de Trabajo de V铆deo del UCIMC, consentimos la siguiente declaraci贸n de disculpa con respecto a una reciente declaraci贸n hecha por Sascha Meinrath en la conferencia de prensa que anunci贸 la compra del nuevo edificio del UCIMC:
鈥淗ay m谩s de 150 Centros de Comunicaci贸n Independientes en m谩s de 50 pa铆ses alrededor del mundo. Y este IMC en Urbana-Champaign es el centro bajo el cual la red global opera. Aqu铆 en Urbana en esencia somos la sede principal global del movimiento Indymedia.
S贸lo podemos hablar por nosotros.
Nosotros no escribimos o dimos el consentimiento a la declaraci贸n expuesta anteriormente por el Sr. Meinrath (de hora en adelante, la llamaremos s贸lo 鈥渓a declaraci贸n鈥). Pero aceptamos nuestra responsabilidad por la declaraci贸n haber sido dicha y comunicada, y creemos que es nuestra responsabilidad responder y repudiar esa declaraci贸n.
Sentimos la necesidad de trabajar con este problema en solidaridad con los voluntarios de los Centro de Comunicaci贸n Independientes (IMC) nacionales e internacionales. Hemos trabajado en el pasado en solidaridad con otros IMC y activistas de IMC alrededor del mundo. Trabajaremos para reparar la confianza que puede haber sido lesionada por la declaraci贸n para que podamos trabajar una vez m谩s en plena solidaridad. Consideramos seriamente las inquietudes de nuestros compa帽eros voluntarios IMC y sus cr铆ticas con respecto a las declaraciones y acciones del UCIMC.
Apoyamos al reportero del UCIMC que document贸 la declaraci贸n, en que la declaraci贸n fue real, y su reporte fue exacto. No ofrecemos ninguna excusa por la declaraci贸n, sin tener en cuenta el contexto en la cual esta fue hecha.
Discrepamos fundamentalmente la declaraci贸n, y no creemos que sea la verdad en realidad o en efecto.
Nos disculpamos por esta declaraci贸n hecha en la conferencia de prensa.
No vislumbramos al UCIMC como la sede principal de la red de Indymedia, ni deseamos realmente que sea la sede principal de la red. No creemos que el UCIMC merece ser la sede principal de la red Indymedia, y nada justifica o merita la creencia o apariencia de serla. No creemos que UCIMC pueda o deba ser la sede principal de la red.
Sentimos mucho que la declaraci贸n fuera hecha, y que ninguna correcci贸n inmediata o retractaci贸n de la misma fuera hecho. Nos disculpamos por la impresi贸n universal de que los miembros colectivamente del UCIMC creen que somos la sede principal de la red de Indymedia. M谩s all谩, asumimos la responsabilidad por haber permitido la declaraci贸n y por no haberla corregido inmediatamente.
Reconocemos que esta declaraci贸n ha causado enojo y desconfianza hacia el UCIMC en la red mundial del Indymedia. Estamos haciendo esta declaraci贸n con respecto a esa situaci贸n. Deseamos agradecer a los voluntarios del IMC alrededor del mundo que enviaron correo electr贸nico directamente a la lista del correo electr贸nico del UCIMC haciendo meridianamente claro a la colectividad de UCIMC el impacto que la declaraci贸n ten铆a y el da帽o que esta ha causado.
Estamos principalmente preocupados por la impresi贸n que esta declaraci贸n ha causado en los voluntarios del IMC fuera de los EE.UU.
Reconocemos que el UCIMC disfruta de tremendos privilegios como resultado de los recursos y el apoyo dado por nuestra comunidad. Tambi茅n reconocemos que estos privilegios provienen de la inmensa y desproporcionada riqueza que tenemos en EE.UU. como resultado de la opresi贸n militar y las pol铆ticas econ贸micas de nuestro gobierno. Esos privilegios no significan m茅ritos de ninguna clase. No significa que UCIMC tiene o debe tener posici贸n alguna en la red global del IMC excepto de ser simplemente otro IMC.
Sentimos sobre todo que la idea que el UCIMC es la sede principal de la red de Indymedia global evoca imperialismo y hegemon铆a americana.
Creemos que la mayor铆a de los miembros de UCIMC no saben los detalles de la relaci贸n financiera del UCIMC con otras organizaciones e IMCs. Somos responsables por nuestra propia ignorancia.
Un grupo especial (ad hoc) de miembros del UCIMC est谩 documentando todas las relaciones financieras, y tendr谩 la documentaci贸n lista en o antes del 2 de junio de 2005. Esperamos que esta documentaci贸n sea completa, transparente y publicada al mundo.
Tambi茅n creemos que la mayor铆a de los miembros del UCIMC son ignorantes acerca del movimiento global del IMC. En t茅rminos generales, no sabemos c贸mo interact煤an los IMC alrededor del mundo y c贸mo IMC global toma decisiones de importancia mundial.
Nosotros, el Grupo de Trabajo de V铆deo del UCIMC, trabajaremos para estar mejor educados y educaremos a nuestros compa帽eros miembros del UCIMC acerca de otros IMCs y de la red global IMC. Nos uniremos a grupos de trabajo mundial, y exhortaremos a otros en UCIMC a hacer lo mismo.
Finalmente, reiteramos nuestras disculpas a todos los activistas, contribuyentes y voluntarios de Indymedia de todo el mundo por nuestra ignorancia de los problemas mundiales y nuestra inacci贸n que llev贸 a esta declaraci贸n ser expuesta sin haber sido corregida ni abordada por m谩s de dos semanas. De nuevo, agradecemos a voluntarios del IMC de alrededor del mundo por ponerse en contacto con UCIMC directamente para alertarnos del impacto, efecto, y da帽o que esta declaraci贸n y la falta de acci贸n pronta de UCIMC ha causado.
Deseamos unirnos en solidaridad con activistas Indymedia alrededor del mundo. Sentimos que se haya da帽ado la confianza entre UCIMC y otros IMCs, y nos empe帽amos en trabajar para reparar el da帽o en todo lo que podamos.
Firmado por Paul Riismandel, Dave Powers, Dave Berliner, Randall Cotton, Bob Illyes, y Colleen Cook |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by one of many someones
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
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Why are there still no apologies, or even slightest supports of these apologies from Sasha, ML , Danielle Chynoveth, or others, who were certainly the main initiators of this statement in discussion ? If others are speaking for the entire ucimc, it is acceptable, as then, it is the internal problem of ucimc, but if not, then this apology, sorry, is still not good enough. Because the named hereby above people are leading persons of ucimc, who determine its main policies and don't do it democratically, for sure. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by not enough
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
i agree with others, while this apology is wonderful and needed, it is not from the person who made the statement. ucimc needs to realize that it is NOT the global imc. i still believe the person who made the statement should be writing the apology. i feel that he and others in his 'clique' DO FEEL as if they are responsible for the global network sustainability.
sorry - sascha you should apologize. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by davep
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
it should also be noted that 3 other ucimc members have asked to be added to the list of signatories to this statement of apology:
Ellen Knutson, Cyrus Pireh, and Jane Andrew |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by davep
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
it should also be noted that 3 other ucimc members have asked to be added to the list of signatories to this statement of apology:
Ellen Knutson, Cyrus Pireh, and Jane Andrew |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by mayler
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
thanks for the statement..
it means a lot, and reassures me.
in solidarity |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by La Ley
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
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Oh yes, I think that Mike Lehman and Danielle Chynoveth [sic] should be taken out and summarily executed for their role in plying Sascha with mind-controlling substances and forcing him to issue a statement that UCIMC is a global center of the universe, a statement of total war on the rest of the world that threatens total annihilation, Armageddon, and the end of the world as we know it!!! Such Hitlerian transgressions must not be tolerated!!! They are all suppressive almightly dictators and must be shot!!! Let's all FORCE them to apologize!!! How will we do this... I suggest waterboarding, stripping and humiliation, and electric shocks. That way, we don't be violating the Geneva Conventions! If we all do this, then maybe a couple of local people with an axe to grind against particular individuals will join the UCIMC. Well, you go ahead and do this, "someone." The rest of us will stay grounded in reality and go about our volunteer UCIMC work as usual. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by curious
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
The statement was made by one person, and if you are looking for an apology then it should come from that one person. The above statement clarifying others' reaction to the statement is also helpful.
However, suggesting ML, DC, or others should apologize for a statement made by SM without their consent or knowledge and representing only himself--then you are asking for something unreasonable. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by La Ley
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
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Hi curious. I agree with you completely. I made my satirical comments in response to "one of the someones" who said that ML and DC should also "be forced to apologize." I believe that there are a few people with grudges against these particular individuals who are using the opportunity of Sascha's gaffe to attack them and UCIMC as a whole. I know one of them personally :-). But be that as it may, Sascha is the only one responsible for his statements, and to carelessly paint other UCIMC members as somehow being involved is careless, irresponsible, and at the worst, malicious. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by another someone
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
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Danielle isn't even a UCIMC Board member. I don't see the connection as to why people want her to apologize. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by uh-nawn
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
Interesting. Very interesting. First of all, I'd now like to know how the money flows. From other U.S. IMC's to the larger global IMC org, etc, etc. Just for the record.
And Sascha's statement sure seems a bit bold and over-reaching, but I can appreciate his motivation and feelings. Surely he didn't mean exactly what he said, and if so, I'd like to hear more details.
I do find it interesting that the Video Working Group, of all sub-groups, felt the need to distance themselves from the statement (it's about Paul, mainly, is my hunch). Strange. Like Paul was worried about being lumped-in with Sascha, chased by the same/some angry mob.
When I was more directly involved, I noticed a lot of internal political struggles for power, prestige, and control. Petty B.S., IMO, and motivated by selfishness and illusions of grandeur. Like too many individuals felt that they were pulling the most weight, and deserved the most credit or reward.
Or were just scheming to give that impression to those that didn't know any better. Or scheming to be one step ahead of the majority, to then "claim" some kind of authority.
What is the IMC? What is the IMC Network to the rest of the world? Surely it's much more than Sascha's or Paul's personal ambitions?
I dunno, the internal political schemings really rubbed me the wrong way at times. Some of the "leaders" seemed to be playing a game sometimes, often against each other, to ride the communal horse that is the IMC to personal advantage or glory.
Very disappointing. Sascha's public statement is disappointing also, although I'm sure there's more of an explanation available than we've read to date. And also disappointing that Paul felt the need to jump-up and "apologize" to save (his own, it would seem) face.
Weird politics, and you all need to work it out openly and cooperatively instead of this odd selective damage control crap I'm reading about today.
No one person is indispensable to the IMC, and no one IMC is more valuable to the whole network. Our strength is in numbers, and harmonious cooperation, not petty political power struggles. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by La Ley
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
Yes, "uh-nawn," this is indeed becoming interesting, almost surreal. ML and DC have been dragged in by someone with a grudge against them. Now you're dragging in Paul and questioning his sincerity, and by extension, the sincerity of all of the people in the Video Working Group who signed the apology. So, let's analyze this. What is your particular problem with Paul? What did Paul ever do to you to deserve your derision?
A little blood is spilled and the sharks circle. When is this fishbowl feeding frenzy going to end? |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by uh-nawn
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
Paul, is Paul. His actions here, in issuing an apology seemingly on "behalf of Sascha", are just strange. I'm not a circling shark at all, I'm just reading what's on this site. Sascha makes a provocative if not insensitive statement trumpeting UCIMC's top-dog position in the global IMC network, and Paul issues an apology on behalf of some sub-comm he's a part of. Poor execution, IMO.
Paul should've just STFU, and let Sascha either elaborate on his statement or issue his own apology. Or maybe an apology could've come from the IMC as a whole. But to see this, "Don't blame us, we're really sorry" official apology from PR and the Vid Group is just strange, and seems to me like PR is trying to angle for something, and is hanging SM out to dry in the process.
I have no idea what DC has to do with this discussion; I didn't mention her or ML. I think you're seeing ulterior motives in my posts that aren't there.
But, your hunch is slightly on track - I don't personally like PR, and his conspicuous public apology on behalf of his Vid Group, "for" Sascha, is awkward at best, and suspect at worst.
Paul is for Paul first, and the IMC second, in my experience. That's not to say that he doesn't accomplish a whole lot for the IMC, but in my experience, there's always a mind toward gaining personal credit or advantage.
PR is a cult of personality, himself. You wanna talk about sharks... http://mediageek.net/about.html
Look, PR is welcome to operate however he sees fit, and I'm not disputing that he's pulled an enormous amount of weight for the IMC over the years. But in my experience, he expends the most effort to "stay on top", and maintain his title and prestige and power of knowledge, more than he actually produces anything.
PR's a schemer and a "player", as much or more than he's a selfless work horse, IMO and in my experience. This "big apology" is par for the course. I feel like he's compartmentalizing Sascha, and that's not fair, nor is it appropriate. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by malatesta1000
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
You people are beyond pitiful. I posted the listserve comments because I was pissed off that ucimc had fallen prey to the seductive power of property. Buying the post office went to their heads -- to say the very least. Who gives a shit if you own a building?
Now, I read a slew of comments about so and so said this and this person is being mean to that person and on and on.
What is this? A club? A high school gossip chain? How in the hell do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you indulge in this infantile crap?
Sell the fucking building -- or better yet give it away -- and get back to work.
Truly pitiful. And disgusting. |
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Beware |
by Dose of Reality
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
Hmmm, uh-nawn, didn't I hear through the grapevine that you were on the Jack-Ryan-alternative-name-of-the-day list ?
Odd, how you pop up now with a gossipy screed that betrays your superficial attention to the disruptive potential of a controversy and a clumsy wannabee failure to really understand conflict within the IMC, while claiming an obviously unwarranted pseudo-familiarity with the players. Very odd.
In fact, given the circumstances -- successful progressive organization achives major goal amid a separate, longstanding low-level disagreement over semantics that flares at an inopportune moment -- it is starting to smell a lot like COINTELPRO in here.
People can add up what I mean for themselves, but it definitely adds another perspective on the possible nature of some of the comments that you just have to wonder where people who don't even know us get such anger from -- considering the limits of their obviously poor interpersonal relationshp skills.
Don't mistake what I'm saying. I understand perfectly well that there are disagreements between people at UC IMC on certain issues. I'm not implying that the face-to-face conflict is in any way related to my point here.
I just wanted to point out that if a criticism comes from a known personality, consider it valid, even if you disagree with it. Trolling, vindictive, and personally inciteful comments like those of un-nawn, a slippery character at best if he actually exists separate from Jack's failure to hide himself -- from what I understand -- as well as anonymous comments from out of cyberspace, should all be taken at a 95% discount over those of real people you know, ya know?
Some trolls are just out to have fun, at least. Others draw a government paycheck and actually have to work at such silliness.
Everyone I know in town is far more interested in progress on the upcoming move to the PO building than they are in who said what to whom -- which is important at times, but only one of a number of important issues on the IMC's agenda right now. Please keep your eye on the ball as you build on past successes with the new resources now available to you to continue serving as the essential media and social center you've become.
Consider: If UC IMC had never done anything important, nobody would care what anyone has to say here, but at least the trolls would leave you alone. I think I prefer the IMC we have, warts and all. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by uh-nawn
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
24 May 2005
|
Good lord, you've gone off the deep end.
I'm a card-carrying Progressive and "bleeding heart liberal" who's had some personal experience with the UCIMC and it's members, that's all. I'm also overjoyed for their recent acquisition of the old Urbana post office. No doubt many IMC members worked very hard for years to reach that goal. Congratulations!
I fired-up this site this evening and was blasted with a huge top-and-center "official apology from the Video Working Group" over Sascha's recent comment, as voiced by PR. That was my first exposure to SM's gaff - Paul's extensive and Vid'-Group-affiliated apology.
I don't think PR's grand apology was productive or called-for, that's all. Perhaps PR thought he was "protecting" or defending the UCIMC, but from where I sit, it looked like he was further isolating Sascha. And Sascha has given his life's blood to the UCIMC.
I do not agree with the way PR's "officially apologized on behalf of the Vid Group" - talk about blowing something out of proportion. Perhaps an apology was still definitely necessary, but it should have come from SM or the UCIMC, not Paul and his Vid Group. PR's very intelligent and savvy, so I still can't understand how he thought this would make things better for the UCIMC. Yes, I'm questioning his motivation.
Regardless, I assure you I have nothing to do with Jack, or COINTELPRO. I'm loyal to the UCIMC and IMC's everywhere if nothing else, just not so loyal to Paul. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by one of many someones
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
Danielle Chynoveth is the one who, according to ucimc articles, was mainly in charge of the building purchasing and "global great plans" behind it. If these articles were wrong about her part in this purchase and the inspiration behind it, then, probably, articles' authors should apologize. Sasha -the one who made the statement. ML -the one who is exercising the great "freedom of speech" on this board hiding, and eliminating everything which he happens not to like. If it is not the dictatorial behavior , then there is no such thing as the dictatorial behavior at all. Now if the freedom of speech , himself, and the great financial leader of global media network together with the great ideological leader, who with the help of her local government connection inspired this entire story, are not pertinent to the issue and shouldn't apologize, then there was no apology at all. Because there is no doubt in anybody's mind that there are many normal people around and inside ucimc in the great difference with those three, whom I've mentioned above. These normal people shouldn't and more important couldn't apologize for the actions, which they didn't initiate and commit. It is like to get an apology from Dalay Lama, or Pope of Rome.
I think, by the way, that La Ley, whoever she is, needs the treatment, as the way she is talking on this board to the people whom she apparently never met or even met seems to be the subject for more than even simple apology. But this is again the business of ucimc. Other people can simply stay away from the dog with rabies, but its owner is at the biggest risk. |
|
Background for uh-nawn |
by La Ley
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
uh-nawn, if the only thing you've read about this controversy is the Video Working Group apology, then you don't have enough information, and you're taking the apology completely out of its context. Please read the accompanying thread on this topic:
http://www.ucimc.org/newswire/display/35699/index.php
and read the discussion on the IMC-communication list:
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-communication/
Check the May archives and read all of the posts related to UCIMC. You will read that Sascha's careless statement provoked a fair amount of anger from other IMC's.
You may not like Paul, but he's not the only one who wrote and signed the apology. Also, the apology clearly states that the group is speaking for itself. The group is NOT apologizing on Sascha's behalf, nor is it hanging Sascha out to dry. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by dfhart
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
"The Bumbershoot Heard 'Round the World, "or, "Desperately Seeking Le Mot Juste"
Oh! -- I see -- Use of "umbrella" has IMCistas around the world up in arms, storming the barricades, while that of "WMDs" builds Empire, which marches on.
Right-wingers, watching from the sidelines unsullied, must be ecstatic while chortling into their bubbley, as the IMC movement implodes, Progressives turning on themselves, bickering and squabbling over politically correct-speak.
Nice job, guys. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by malatesta
malatesta1000 (nospam) yahoo.com (unverified) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
Another excerpt from the ucimc listserve, this time regarding "mediation," is postes at the end of the comment.
The point of posting this one is to hopefully encourage some conversation about whether obsessive navel-gazing -- along with having fun-fun-fun meetings about how to use the new clubhouse -- have shit to do with critical issues bearing down on the people.
You've got folks all over champaign and urbana dying prematurely from inadequate health care. And you people are wrapped up on finger pointing and name calling.
There are those in this town living in entirely inadequate housing, or on the street. And you think it's newsworthy to post photos of members sitting on the floor of a quater-million dollar building brainstorming about all the cool times you'll be having in the clubhouse.
This is egocentric activism. This is gentile bourgeois radical groovy.
Turn the fucking post office into a homeless shelter and find the smallest least interesting room with no windows and use that for the servers and broadcasting station.
Now HERE'S some important, life-changing, anti-establishment activisim for you:
Mediation Meeting MInutes
Attendees: Ellen, Paul R, Mike L
No formal note taker, so this is just a brief impressionistic note on
the discussion.
Mike offered a draft proposal that will follow below. It is a starting
point for discussion on what happens when mediation fails or conflict
occurs that is not suitable for mediation as we transition into
discussion of what happens when conflicts cannot be resolved by mediation.
It is based on the general principles that have historically guided our
evolving approach to handling conflict at the Steering group level,
accomodates various existing policies in use by working groups, reflects
past experience, and emphasizes the need to actively and constructively
build consensus, particularly when conflict involves parties that are
active IMC members. Comments are welcome.
Some general discussion on recent issues related to mediation and
conflict as practiced in a consensus-based organization followed.
Concerns were raised about the need to better and more effectively
pursue consensus and about the different levels of awareness and belief
of consensus present among IMC members. A general policy on consensus
was identified as an area that, like other areas of controversy, cries
out for more attention in terms of defined policy. The promulgation of
such a policy may lead to less perceived conflict and more realistic
expectations about what it is possible to achieve through consensus.
Among several outstanding issues where IMC members have expressed
concerns over the lack of policy contributing to conflicts, a better
group understanding of what consensus is capable of achieving and how to
go about pursuing it was noted as an important means to address concerns
about conflict raised across the spectrum by IMC and community members.
Due to other commitments, it was agreed that the Mediation group would
meet next on Tuesday, 14 June at 6pm.
Mike Lehman
Corrections or elaborations on my impressions is welcomed.
Draft proposal by me follows...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
UC IMC Conflict Policy Draft Proposal
When mediation fails or is excluded by the nature of the offense (per
definition, TBD -- to be determined)
The Steering group鈥檚 jurisdiction includes only those incidents that
occur in connection with the use of an UC IMC resource. Any other act of
commission or omission, involving either a UC IMC member or a member of
the public, is beyond UC IMC鈥檚 jurisdiction and should be addressed to
the relevant legal authorities with the appropriate jurisdiction.
Any incident that involves the life or safety of an individual is
specifically not suitable for mediation under UC IMC policy. Proper
legal authorities should be contacted in such cases, as UC IMC has no
jurisdiction over the disposition of such incidents. The UC IMC will
provide [appropriate referrals/notice of process, TBD] to anyone who
claims to be subject to a crime by another user in connection with their
legitimate use of a UC IMC resource. Emergency action, up to an
including a 10-day ban from use of the relevant UC IMC resource, may be
requested and court orders that result from such incidents will be
honored, as addressed below.
UC IMC will take no action, except as directed by the courts or provided
for in this policy, in any dispute that it is aware is subject to legal
action.
Claims, statements, and proposals that do not specifically address nor
are directly relevant to the claimed abuse of a UC IMC resource are out
of order, except as specifically permitted herein, throughout
proceedings under this policy and the related Steering Group Conflict
Resolution Process, since they involve jurisdiction over matters that
the UC IMC does not have control over.
The UC IMC encourages its members and the public using its resources to
treat each other with mutual respect at all times. However, we realize
that conflicts occur. Anyone with a conflict can make use of the UC IMC
mediation policy to seek resolution to that conflict. Both parties must
agree to participate. While participation in good faith by both parties
is required for mediation to succeed, sometimes it fails. Either
participant then has the option of taking a proposal to Steering under
the Steering Group Conflict Resolution Process to resolve a conflict
that mediation fails to solve.
The sole sanction that the Steering group may impose under this policy
on any member or non-member is denial of use of that IMC resource, at
its discretion. This determination will reflect only a finding that a UC
IMC resource was abused in the Steering group鈥檚 opinion, determined by
consensus, and shall imply no finding of guilt in any case. Such actions
will remain confidential to the extent possible, while reflecting the
need to continue to deny the specified resource/s to those subject to
sanction as long as it is in effect.
No one shall be subject to any proceeding for an incident that occurs
within the IMC鈥檚 jurisdiction unless they have been offered, in cases
where they can be located, the opportunity to testify fully as provided
herein in their own behalf. If this is not possible, due to court order
or other cause, then this is prima facie evidence that the relevant
issue is moot, having been addressed in the proper legal jurisdiction by
competent authority, and will no longer be addressed by the Steering
group. Provided notice is given as outlined below, such legal outcomes
will be recognized by UC IMC.
The UC IMC will honor court orders issued in connection with incidents
of violence or threats against those using its resources as a matter of
policy, but has no jurisdiction beyond that which it has over its own
resources, as provided in this policy.
Immediate sanctions available under this policy shall be defined as
bans, to differentiate them from longer term sanctions imposed by this
IMC process.
In the case of an incident that leads an IMC member to seek an order of
protection against another IMC member or a member of the public, that
person may request immediate action, up to and including an immediate
10-day emergency ban, on the accused from use of the relevant UC IMC
resource/s, from either the Steering group or its competent delegated
authority [i.e. existing and future Shows, Web, Space, or email account
policies]. If such a process requires a consensus, then the accused will
be excluded from that consensus. The spokes or other representatives of
competent delegated authorities with the authority to impose bans have
the responsibility of notifying other IMC groups, as needed, to ensure
enforcement of such bans.
Bans, up to and including the 10-day ban, are intended to be used as a
cooling off period and to gain time to seek emergency action from the
courts, if needed, as determined by the victim. They are not intended
for nor should they be used in lieu of seeking assistance from legal
authorities, if such action is felt necessary by the party involved. The
ban will automatically expire no later than at the end of the 10 days,
but may be replaced by a court order formally recognized by the Steering
group or temporarily continued, as provided below. No ban for any single
incident will extend beyond 10 days, or be renewed, except as
specifically provided for in this policy.
Notice of a formal, outside legal action, paper, or proceeding, must be
addressed to the directors of record of UC IMC, to be delivered by them
upon receipt to the immediate attention of the Steering group at its
next meeting, as the only manner in which a 10-day ban arising from any
single incident may be extended beyond its scheduled end. Receipt of
such notice by the directors will suffice to allow an expiring 10-day
ban to remain in force long enough for it to be addressed at the next
Steering meeting; they will notify those involved of any such extension
of a 10-day ban. At the earliest opportunity, the Steering group will
then formally note the existence of the legal action, paper, or
proceeding and take such actions by consensus that are within its
capacities, generally limited to the use of UC IMC resources within its
jurisdiction, in order to honor such legal orders so long as they remain
in force.
Steering Group Conflict Resolution Process
[reference to appropriate IMC consensus policy, TBD, or other accepted
consensus policy would be very helpful here as a reminder to the parties
involved about how to effectively pursue consensus]
Parties directly involved in the incident in question will be excluded
from the consensus throughout the Steering Conflict Resolution process.
Each party has five minutes to present its case by an argumentative
presentation [may be replaced by a 500 word statement, if desired],
beginning with the complainant. Each party will then have three minutes
for rebuttal, speaking in turn [or alternatively, may submit a 300 word
follow-up statement].
Each party is strongly urged to include a specific proposal for
resolution of the dispute as part of their presentation. The objective
of having the parties to the case present their own proposals, and the
exclusion of any other proposals, is to encourage each party to make a
proposal that represents their best effort to reach a consensus
solution, given the facts in the case and the likelihood of its
acceptance by those participating.
In the case of multiple parties on a side, the time allotments noted
above will be extended by one minute [or 100 words] for each additional
person. Those involved will decide among themselves how they will
individually allot their time within the total time [or written
statement] available.
At the conclusion of the argumentative presentations, a straw poll will
be taken of those present to see if consensus has been reached on the
proposal of either party. If 80% of those present (excluding the
involved parties) agree on one of the proposals, then five minutes each
of opposition and support, in that order, will be offered for further
discussion of the favored proposal. Then another straw poll will
determine if consensus has been reached. If it has, then the proposal
will be adopted as the appropriate sanction. If consensus still fails,
then the case will be dropped.
All time limits will be strictly observed, with no exceptions, except in
case of disability that requires accommodation to provide equivalent
testimonial time. The Steering group must be notified of the need for
such accommodation and will decide at the start of the proceeding how
much additional time is appropriate as an accommodation.
The parties involved may request discussion time by the Steering group
be allocated to those who they wish to speak in their favor or they may
allow the Steering group to recognize speakers in support of their
proposal, up to the total time available for that part of the discussion.
If a party chooses of their free will to not to step forward to
participate in the Steering Conflict Resolution process described above,
then the aggrieved party may make a statement and proposal, totaling ten
minutes. A straw poll will then be taken of those present to see if
consensus has been reached on the proposal. If 80% of those present
(excluding the involved party) agree on the proposal, then five minutes
each of opposition and support will be offered for the proposal. Then
another straw poll will determine if consensus has been reached. If it
has, then the proposal will be adopted as the appropriate sanction. If
consensus still fails, then the case will be dropped. Time limits for
presentation and discussion will be strictly enforced, as noted above.
If a proposal on any specific incident or group of incidents has failed
to achieve consensus under this process, the issue is considered resolved.
Double jeopardy for anything covered in a previous conflict or mediation
that has utilized this policy or the mediation policy is specifically
prohibited, however directly and personally relevant related incidents
may be included as part of the argumentative presentation. Each incident
or case will stand on its own. |
|
Re: uh-nawn, malatesta |
by ML
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
The pseudonymn "uh-nawn" is associated with the group of rotating screen names used by Jack Ryan.
"uh-nawn" has mainly confined himself previously to the short, derisively snappy comments that typify Jack's work, as well a number of other correlating factors.
"uh-nawn" for the very first time in this thread is claiming to be an IMC member long familiar with the internal workings of UC IMC.
"uh-nawn" has NEVER complained before about the numerous times I've sent his stuff to the Jack bin in the last six months since we sent Jack packing -- a very odd failure to follow-through for any real UC IMC member, who would likely be very irritated if I was making a series of such mistakes about who he really is -- I'm sure I would have recieved some communication from him previously about this if I really am mistaken about his identity.
Thus, "uh-nawn" and his very questionable approach to building consensus will be going back to the Jack file from here on in. I think it's probably important to maintaining the context of this thread to leave up the previous comments by "uh-nawn" in it, as well as this info that will allow the reader to decide how much credibility to give to "uh-nawn's" comments.
On a final note, "malatesta" is exhibiting some interesting behavior. The substance of most of his posting is stuff cherrypicked out of context from UC IMC email lists -- an old habit of Jack's, despite the fact that most of our lists are open and available for anyone to read. Since the start of the controversy, he has chosen to begin displaying one of those easily disposable Yahoo email addresses -- another habit of Jack's when he has chosen to encourage direct communication with himself. Perhaps Wayne P. can tell us about his experience of being baited and badgered by Jackpseudonymn (at) yahoo.com after trying to communicate with someone at such a Yahoo address? Given that malatesta's point is political posturing with the apparent objective of disruption and division, rather than clarification or trying to build a consensus, I'll leave it to the reader for now to evaluate the credibility of his/her posts. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by Babs
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
malatesta, I don't know if your comments about health care and homelessness were serious, but those aren't things that the UCIMC was set up to handle. And they're being addressed inadequately everywhere, not just in C-U. If you really care about issues of homelessness and health care, get involved with them directly.
Why don't you organize a fund-rasier for the Center for Women in Transition? They just lost a huge chunk of their budget due to a grant falling through. Or volunteer at AWP, or the TIMES center. These are places that can certainly use dedicated volunteers.
I warn you though, it's difficult to operate a homeless shelter without succumbing to the "seductive power of property." Since establishing a homeless shelter requires working with the establishment to write grants, get the proper zoning, follow building codes, etc, I'm not sure they're ideologically pure enough for you. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by La Ley
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
|
Um, malatesta, YOU'RE doing quite a bit of finger pointing and name calling yourself. Cheap histrionics won't get you anywhere. If you want some conflict resolution, come to a meeting, make a proposal, and follow the rules. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by Colleen Cook
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
uh-nawn & friends,
Just to reiterate, the Video Group鈥檚 statement was created by and consented on as a group. If you are confused as to the purpose and reasons for the statement, please read it. It will clarify all those "loose ends" for you.
Thanks,
Colleen |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by malatesta
malatesta1000 (unverified) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
I'm involved with a number of social and political action initiatives. I understand, thanks very much, that you need to deal with building codes, etc. And that's another reason why the ucimc clubhouse is a diversion of time and energy away from direct action on things that actually make a difference to the oppressed classes.
As far as coming to a meeting to resolve a conflict, I'm not real excited about having to wade through the legalistic bullshit passing for consensus process.
Get serious people. Buildings, press conferences about yourself, articles about yourself, comments about yourself, apologies about yourself, defensive statements about yourself -- do zero to change the world.
The only time this site generates more than a handful of comments about any given article is when it's about ucimc itself. That's what get's people engaged, worked up, angry, ready to act. If only that heat were directed outward . . . |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by one of many someones
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
It is convenient to hang everything on mythological Jack Ryan, as he can't be real unifying so fully different personalities as ML and others are attributing to him. However, La Ley was much more offensive to Wayne P., while deeply offending his only former coworker who was not afraid to come out because he doesn't depend on current government and future Intel benefits.
In any case, everything , which was produced on this board, still doesn't explain why the main offenders of other imc, those, who have the main responsibility for this outburst, have NOT PRODUCED ANY APOLOGY.
I withdraw my comparison of this current apology with apologies of Pope of Rome and/or Dalay Lama. These people have power, at least. People, who produced apology in this article have, I am sure, the common sense and the normal conscience, but , unfortunately, the power belongs to those, who committed offense, and DON'T WANT TO ACCEPT THE RESPONSIBILITY. They continue also to commit similar offenses.
So in conclusion, it is possible to say,
" Thank you, reasonable people of ucimc, but, unfortunately, your attempt wasn't successful, and didn't resolve anything" |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by babs
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
"And that's another reason why the ucimc clubhouse is a diversion of time and energy away from direct action on things that actually make a difference to the oppressed classes."
What exactly is the UCIMC directing attention away from? |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by malatesta
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
It's diverting time and energy away from anything and everything that actually matters. Look -- the threads both here and on the listserve make it abundantly clear that ucimc got themselves a clubhouse, went bonkers over their incredible wonderfulness, said profoundly stupid and baseless things about themselves, pissed off people around the world.
And now, in response, they grovel all over themselves, abase themselves, apologize to the skies, and the NEXT DAY post an article showing photographs of the new building.
NOBODY GIVES A SHIT ABOUT YOUR BUILDING! People are pissed and alientated because you're acting childish and silly, and because you're in love with the idea of activism, the image, the construct, the philosophy. And that strikes many of us as frivolous. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by La Ley
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
So malatesta, you don't care about the building and don't want to read about it. Then exercise your personal freedom and don't read the articles! Some of us do care. The ones who do can read the articles, the ones who don't can skip them or write their own articles on subjects that do interest them. But the problem is, you really do care, so much so in fact that you have proposals of your own for building use. So, why don't you show up at a space committee meeting and make your proposals? If you don't, we'll conclude that you're all talk and no action. I won't hold my breath.
And "one of many someones," if you REALLY want me to revisit the Wayne P. issue, I'll return to the "I, Robot" thread where we left off, but I'm not going to continue that discussion here, where it is off topic and has NOTHING to do with Sascha's statement. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by For ML
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
Mike -- if you don't know who I am then you just haven't been paying attention.
Listen. Think. Notice.
-- mal-a-test-a |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by one of many someones
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
La Ley, what I REALLY want from you is to stay away from me as far as possible. I am not comfortable to use your way of self-expression but, unfortunately, you didn't understand (or, I think, pretended so) my previous comment, though it was more than clear. Read it all over again and you would get my opinion about possible communication with you for me and anybody else, whom I might respect or care about.
I hope that this time I've made myself more than clear. |
|
To: One of many someones.... |
by anti-Anna
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
|
Anna, buzz off. Your loony rantings are *not* helpful in the least. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by uh-nawn
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
I am absolutely not "Jack". Please post IP#'s to prove your point. This is lunacy. Jack has won, in a way.
I've used at most, three pseudonyms over the years, but am 100% of the side of the UCIMC and all IMCs. I'm an equal-opportunity gadfly however, but above all, I believe in what the IMC is trying to do.
I'm really feeling sad for UCIMC and ML right this second. I also despise the "Jack" trolls that infest this forum as much as any other IMC regular.
I would offer more details in private to prove that I'm not "Jack", but given that I've openly insulted PR, and given that ML has already made up his mind, I see no point.
ML, you are 100% wrong. Compare IP#'s. There is no way the IP# that "uh-nawn" posts under is the same as "Jacks". In fact, you'll see that my IP# isn't used by any other poster.
So you clearly haven't actually done the research, and are instead just flailing blindly. Compare IP#'s, Einstein. You clearly have not done so.
Am I a "troll"? Maybe. A gadfly? Absolutely. "Jack" under another name, absolutely not. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by uh-nawn
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
And so ML can stop his witch hunt, I used to live in CU and was personally involved in the IMC. You haven't hidden any of my posts to date, and even if you did and it annoyed me, I don't currently live near enough to stop in and discuss the matter in person. Nor would it bother me much, I'm not a message board troll. I have also contacted you personally several times in the past and thanked you for clearing the troll turds off this forum.
I just re-read you accusation against me, and nowhere do you claim to have compared IP#'s. You're just guessing, plain and simple.
Yes, people can spoof an IP#. But look at every post by me ("uh-nawn"), and you'll see that not only is it always the same #, but it's on an out-of-the-area ISP. And not one other person has ever posted from that IP#.
Dude, I understand your fury and confusion, but really, you're gettin' trigger happy now. Your assumptions and elaborate accusations are completely unfounded.
I started into this thread to complain about PR's "apology". That's my only motivation here. I saw the conspicuous apology, felt it was unfair to SM in an indirect way, and said as much.
And now I'm "Jack"? This is getting surreal. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by uh-nawn
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
And as for the running "clubhouse" insult here, I disagree. I also disagree that the new building should be used to house the homeless. That's a fractional, band-aid approach to the much bigger issue of fighting the very rightwing fascism that creates the homeless problem to begin with.
The UCIMC desperately needed a new office space. They busted their collective ass to get something, and their pride and joy is perfectly understandable. Not offensive in the least to me.
That SM made a tactless or callous comment about UCIMC's role in the entire IMC network is it's own issue, unto itself. That was unfortunate, and it remains to be seen what he or the UCIMC will say to help salve the wound.
The new UCIMC building is a wonderful achievement, and all IMC's should be happy for them. Nice work, all of you... PR, ML, SM, DC, everyone! It was a group effort, no doubt. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by one of many someones
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
I have a great idea. Every time when this ucimc is starting to sink in their own shit, like when ML is removing all comments without any reasons only because he, himself, doesn't like them, Sascha is claiming that he is the financial leader of the world, La Ley is barking at the unknown people when she all together worth , probably, less than the drop of their urine, etc.., you should raise up the sticker, where would be written, 'These are not we, this is Jack (Anna)."
You know, people (mainly these three "great leaders"), apologize for the puddle of your shit where you placed the entire ucimc or shut up. It is really becoming disgusting. I am out of this conversation. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by babs
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
"It's diverting time and energy away from anything and everything that actually matters."
That's a pretty wide ranging statement, no? There are a lot of activists who will go about their bussiness no matter what the IMC does. The world will continue to function, and people will put their energy where they see fit. It's up to individuals to decide what actually matters in their lives, and for the most part, that does not include the UCIMC.
Clearly, this whole thing matters to you, because otherwise you wouldn't be bothering to start new threads about it. So maybe it's just taking up energy and attention you personally would rather be putting elsewhere, which is something you have control over. |
|
Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by malatesta
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
|
What bothers me about it is that there is only so much progressive philanthropic money to go around. The thought that seventy thousand of these scarce dollars were solicited for the aggrandizement and comfort of an imc group is mind boggling. Ask CWIT or GCAP or EIF or any number of other groups providing direct services to people in dire situations what they might do with that kind of money.
You're right. I should quit this conversation. It's wearing me out, and I assume it's doing the same to all of you.
Peace. Freedom. Anarchy. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by babs
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
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You're right that $70k for CWIT would go a long, long way. As would, say, the two Americorps volunteer positions they used to have before the local program was cut. We can thank W for that directly, though.
Anyway, peace to you. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by Goodbye, and
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
25 May 2005
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...good riddance. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by dfhart
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
26 May 2005
|
Much work was done by UCIMC in general and Sascha, in particular, to benefit the Global IMC community -- going back several years. All you have to do is search the archives to view the history of some of these contributions-- and the level of ongoing commitment toward building and nurturing the network..
Just keep this in mind, those of you who seem so eager and willing to take offence. I think it is quite counterproductive to attack and alienate those who have such an unbroken history of contributing so much.
********************************
Urbana-Champaign IMC receives federal non-profit status. Current rating: 0
by Sascha Meinrath & Sarah Kanouse, Urbana-Champ
Email: meinrath (nospam) urbana.indymedia.org (unverified!)
Phone: (217) 384-5346 13 Jun 2001
Modified: 09:46:27 PM
The Urbana-Champaign Independent Media Center Foundation (UCIMC) received notice today, June 13, 2001, that we were granted official federal 501(c)(3) [non-profit] status. According to our notification letter, "Based on information you supplied, and assuming your operations will be as stated in your application for recognition of exemption, we have determined you are exempt from federal income tax under section 501(a) of the Internal Revenue Code as an organization described in section 501(c)(3)."
The Urbana-Champaign Independent Media Center Foundation (UCIMC) received notice today, June 13, 2001, that we were granted official federal 501(c)(3) [non-profit] status. According to our notification letter, "Based on information you supplied, and assuming your operations will be as stated in your application for recognition of exemption, we have determined you are exempt from federal income tax under section 501(a) of the Internal Revenue Code as an organization described in section 501(c)(3)." This initial ruling, which will be reviewed after December 31, 2004 makes it possible for donors to deduct contributions to the UCIMC on their tax returns (retroactive to November 30, 2000), as described in section 170 of the Internal Revenue Code. Bequests, legacies, devises, transfers, or gifts to the UCIMC of for UCIMC use are deductible for Federal estate and gift tax purposes if they meet the application provisions of sections 2055, 2106, and 2522 of the Code.
Sarah Kanouse, Sascha Meinrath, and Paul Riismandel all contributed to this 6-month long effort. Our initial 50-page application and the 30-page answer to clarifying questions posed by the IRS are available at the UCIMC's community center (218 West Main Street, Suite 110; Urbana, IL 61801). Copies of our initial application, clarifying questions, notification letter, and supporting materials will be placed on our website: http://urbana.indymedia.org/ . Further questions concerning the Urbana-Champaign Independent Media Center Foundation, please send us an e-mail at: info (at) urbana.indymedia.org - for questions about donating to the UCIMC, please contact our treasurer at fundraising (at) urbana.indymedia.org.
See also:
http://urbana.indymedia.org/
************************************************
Wednesday, Feb. 27 (which year?):
7:00pm 颅 The Global IMC Network; Making and Distributing Grassroots Indy
Media, a talk facilitated by Sascha Meinrath
With over seventy centers worldwide, (150+ today) the IMC network continues to expand bringing
alternative news and the power to be the media to more people every day. Yet,
this enormous global network is radically decentralized and democratic, with
no headquarters or directors. All Indymedia content is freely distributed and
reproduced the world over. Sascha will discuss how the Global IMC network works
and keeps the information flowing. |
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Is is appropriate to "OUT" the "TROLLS," ML? |
by Paul Kotheimer
herringb (nospam) prairienet.org (unverified) |
Current rating: 0
26 May 2005
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If a post conflicts with site policy, thank you for deleting it.
If it does not, then I, as a reader, prefer to judge for myself whether the source is credible.
I would prefer that the IMC-Tech volunteer in charge of site policy NOT make insinuations about the identity of pseudonyms. It makes for a harsh climate in which to post. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by Joe Futrelle
futrelle (nospam) shout.net (unverified) |
Current rating: 0
26 May 2005
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> I would prefer that the IMC-Tech volunteer in charge of site policy NOT make insinuations about the identity of pseudonyms. It makes for a harsh climate in which to post.
I agree. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by malatesta
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
26 May 2005
|
I agree as well. Very few people concurred with my views, but that didn't bother me. What got to me was the inevitable questioning of my authenticity, my acceptability, my right -- if you'd like -- to post on the site.
As for genuine trolls, the best approach is to ignore them. Getting pissy about it, which I see regularly here, only encourages them. It's a game not worth playing.
At the same time, it really does discourage dissent to label unpopular commentary as the work of a troll. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by malatesta
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 May 2005
|
Just when I'd lost my steam, something comes along to stoke the fire and build up the pressure near the boiling point.
A message from DC off the listserve:
"dear imcistas,
this is a friendly little reminder that the day we bought the post office,
we started to spend $200 EVERY day.
we also got dozens of e-mails offering love, money, support. the whole
city is excited to see what comes of this - waiting for us to open our
arms.
these are dangerous times. these are exciting times for us.
wake up. the imc needs you.
love,
danielle
p.s. please don't e-mail me your thoughts. i want your actions, not your
words."
Where to begin?
How about multiplying $200 per day by 30 days per month and coming up with $6,000 per month?
SIX THOUSAND DOLLARS A MONTH!
And so, we are told, ucimc needs us. Needs us to what? Well, we're told it's not our words that are needed but our "actions."
"Actions?" THERE'S a nice little euphemism.
Ucimc needs your MONEY! Say it, g'head, let it roll off your tongue:
"Money."
The idea then seems to be to collect $75,000 a year (the numbers truly -- truly -- boggle the mind) of those limited progressive philanthropic dollars from this community to pay the mortgage on the clubhouse.
Where is this getting anyone? What benefit is this to the community? It nets out at a very serious drain.
As the popular bumper sticker says, "If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by someone
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 May 2005
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Yeah, it seems , "Patria or Muerte". If this trio: Danielle, Sascha, and Mike are not properly reprimanded, ucimc is destined to die.
Amen, then. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by someone
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 May 2005
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Slight correction. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that , even if this trio of "C-U barbudos" bring their apologies and back off, it would be still possible to undo what they have done. At that point, hurray, our local herostratuses, "Moritori te sulutant!" |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by another IMCista
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 May 2005
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Actually, Sasha did more to discredit himself as a slick little self promoter than he did UCIMC.- at least within the global IMC network, outside the global listserves. The work of rank and file UCIMC media makers and volunteers continues to be valued by those of us from other IMC's who visit your site.
ANinstructive to note that many local IMC collectives that predate UCIMC were generally able to meet their 501-C3 through other sources before Sasha - or his ego emerged on the scene. Many of us have had experience with the machinations of non-profit status or sponsorship for literally decades.
Hate to say it, but thank Jezuz he's your problem, not ours. Still your apology - while not necessary is a welcome breath of fresh air from a group of dedicated IMCistas. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by someone
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 May 2005
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What is the breath of fresh air, Another IMCista? The fact that the financial standing of ucimc is ruined because of the greatest egos of Danielle Chynoveth and Sascha Meinarth. The fact that the ideological standing of ucimc is about to be ruined (or, actually, ruined already) because of the great ego of the editor in chief-Mike Lehman, who is the free speech, itself, on this web. Or, maybe, the fact that other members of ucimc can't change or anyhow influence the behavior of these three, and, therefore, ucimc is fully ready to blow up. What is so refreshing in this information above, Another IMCista? It is good, of course, to try to be positive, but if there is no basis for positivism whatsoever, these attempts look nutty. |
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"these attempts look nutty." |
by regular reader
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 May 2005
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Thanks for your opinion, Anna, but I think your summation tells us far more about you than it does about UC IMC. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by gehrig
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 May 2005
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Maybe we could found a troll working group. You know, "The sky is falling. CONSENSED."
@%< |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by someone
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 May 2005
|
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I have been called 'Anna" much earlier, more than half of year ago. I liked at that time the publication of Anna V. Epelbaum (I think that is who you are referring to). Unfortunately, in difference with her, I can't write poems to express what I have expressed in prose. The case is though so bright that any talented or even not talented but not terribly bad poet is, I am sure, welcome to describe it. New frosts, byrons and whoever else, please, come to the rescue!! |
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a haiku |
by gehrig
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 May 2005
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the sky is falling
the sky is falling -- CONSENSED!
the sky is falling
@%< |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by someone
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 May 2005
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Sorry, gehrig, even with the "great" CONSENSED it doesn't have sense. Better try yourself further in prose. Hello, frosts, brownings, williams, whoever else come to the poetical rescue, if you have better than gehrig idea what this rescue might be! |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by La Luz
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 May 2005
|
I found this in a book of poetry in the Urbana Public Library. It is a caution against those who try to destroy others out of spite or envy. "Someone" should take this poem to heart.
The forbidden fruit is the sweetest cherry,
If one thinks that rules are not for one meant.
One finds there portraits of Saliery,
And Herostratus' statue in the center. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by someone
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
28 May 2005
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Is it self-critisism, La Ley? Are you referring to your behavior in the case of Wayne Pickette or maybe others also? Whose poem is it anyway? |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by someone
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
28 May 2005
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Is it self critisism, La Ley? Are you referring to your own behavior in the case with Wayne Pickette or , maybe , many other also? Whose poem is it anyway? |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by La Luz
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
28 May 2005
|
"Someone," I take the poem as referring to you. Herostratus is symbolic of you badmouthing the new Post Office. Let's take a closer look look at the story of Herostratus. This is from Chronicles of Love and Resentment, by Eric Gans:
"They say that in 356 B.C., Herostratus, in order to insure his immortal fame, burned down the great temple of Diana (Artemision) at Ephesus, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. This is a major date in the history of resentment. To understand its relevance for our times, we should imagine the prosperous Ionian seaport as an early model of the 'good society' and Herostratus himself as in no way oppressed or victimized... For Herostratus knew that his life would be the subject of no biographies, that he would be remembered for one act and one act alone."
If you view the Post Office as symbolic of the Temple of Diana (this was an allusion that YOU made earlier in this thread), we can take your continual war against the UCIMC, the Post Office purchase, and anything else that the "good society" (UCIMC) does, for that matter, as symbolic of you burning it down. Only you know the reason for your bitterness and resentment, but you seem to be fixated on Wayne Pickette, so perhaps you are upset that a bunch of intelligent people asked questions about his statements rather than accepting unsupported claims at face value. But that's what we do in a free society with a free press. Let me also point out to you that the Public i ran a positive story about Mr. Pickette and that the UCIMC web site featured this story, and it received international attention. All additional threads related to Mr. Pickette were started by Mr. Pickette or his wife, Anna Epelbaum, or were started by comments that Mr. Pickette or Ms. Epelbaum made to other articles, so therefore the UCIMC has been more than fair to those two. I view La Ley's comments as trying to get at the truth.
As for who wrote the poem, maybe you can tell us, eh? |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by someone
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
28 May 2005
|
I don't think that 'one of many someones' considers me to be one he cares or respects. That is why I decide to answer you though I think that his/her opinion about you after the comment addressed to Steve Bisset is very well deserved.
So, thank you for your efforts to educate me, but I happened to have the educational level slightly above the very basic literacy level. So, I know who Herostratus was. I don't think that anyone in right mind would compare the temple of Arthemide in Ephes, one of the seven greatest treasures of ancient world to PO building in down town of Urbana. But, again, it is not far ahead of Sascha Meinarth claim to be the financial leader of the global free press network. Actually, it sounds very much the same.
So, I don't have anything new to add to this 'mania of magnificence' , as this entire thread is posted after the apology of mentally normal members of ucimc for actions of their schizophrenic leaders with this mania.
ucimc paid a bit of positive attention to Wayne Pickette after the article of Phil Stinard. To be precise after this article appeared on three other imc webs. The treatment of him, his wife and their publications on this web was and is outrages. You, as I have noticed, was one of the main contributor to this terrible treatment, trying to offend them and even those people from other continents who came to the rescue of Wayne Pickette, as other, inside of the USA, can't do it, being dependent of government's and Intel's benefits. I, personally, would not be surprised, if Steve Bisset would sue you and ucimc for your comments.
Actually, I think that you, personally, have your own agenda, trying to ruin American glory , which Wayne Pickette has promoted and is ready to promote again. Are you doing it on behalf of your own country or only on behalf of your own career in white supremacy infected ucimc, where all color people should step on some other person's throat to prove their loyalty and devotion? Your choice of this throat to step on is showing that my first guess should be correct.
Anyhow, it was you, who read book in Urbana library. So, it should be you, who know the name of the author, not me. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by not Frost, not Browning, etc., but I've tried
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
29 May 2005
|
In response to someone's request:
Eternal Thinkers
The loud leaders' trumphets
Claims fictions triumphs
And forces folks to go to stupid wars.
They vote with their hands,
The march on foreign lands
(Heads can be used as hammers, it they- sore).
But heads're still having thoughts
(External Thinkers 're at work on any crap).
Hypocrisy and Greed've been precisely taught,
But solemn speeches've made us only to laugh.
Without pinions and any kind of fuel,
Or known reasons of any known sort,
Not caring if it ever looks cool,
Eternal Thinkers are always at work.
They slow down or speed up the sources.
Thoughts become lazy might be even soft.
But there no one on Earth,
There is no one in universe,
There is no such external curse,
Which can just turn this Thinkers off.
To burn somebody's thoughts,
As to beat with whips on water.
That leaders don't want to understand
They'd burnt best books in fires,
Neglected tears and cries.
They could've obtained thus the silence over land.
But at that time a local humble man
(Eternal Thinker'd speed up from one to ten)
Stood in the crown and whispered, "Okay, lads,
We would reprint, what you have burnt,
Would use computers and Internet,
And would write books you even more!"
Without pinions and any kind of fuel,
Or known reasons of any known sort,
Not caring if it ever looks cool,
Eternal Thinkers are always at work.
They slow down or speed up the sources.
Thoughts become lazy might be even soft.
But there no one on Earth,
There is no one in universe,
There is no such external curse,
Which can just turn this Thinkers off. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by not Frost, not Browning, etc., but I've tried
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
29 May 2005
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It should be 'crowd' not 'crown'. |
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Corrections |
by by not Frost, not Browning, etc., but I've tried
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
30 May 2005
|
1. Between six and seven lines should be,
"They should give up their lives,
Should pay for leaders' crimes."
2. "There is no one on Earth,
There is no one in Universe..", - instead of what is now in second and fourth stances. |
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The UCIMC Haiku |
by Neither Browning Nor Frost
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
31 May 2005
|
anonymous post
that someone disagrees with?
must be a "troll." bye! |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by not Frost, not Browning, etc., but I've tried
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
31 May 2005
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Are you saying that ALL people should post here under their real names, as, other way, what you have said can be understood that if ANYONE doesn't like a posting under any other one's pen name, this posting should be removed. It is more than bizarre. Such way nothing at all ever would be posted on this web. It looks even worse than the solid censorship, that is supposed to appear as the result of ucimc future and, probably, current financial dependency. Anyhow, if EVERYBODY here posts under his/her real name, I think, I would do the same. Other way, I won't. There are some typos in my posting. I still think that the main idea of my poem is clear and very much up to date. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by La Luz
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
01 Jun 2005
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Ana, que bueno que te est谩s divirtiendo hablando con ti misma :-) 驴Viste lo que escribi贸 La Ley al fin del hilo "Yo, Aut贸mata"? Bueno, 隆Hasta luego! |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by Steve Bisset
sbisset769 (nospam) hotmail.com (unverified) |
Current rating: 0
01 Jun 2005
|
Now I have to make a comment!
I saw Wayne's diagram in 1974, at INTEL, the one he gave to Ted Hoff.
I know Wayne has given this diagram over for scientific analysis, to attempt to determine the nearest date of it's origin.
It is not true that the comments were begun by Wayne himself.
1998 October 23
Updated microcomputer timeline, adding Wayne Pickette as a reference.
A Canadian computer scientist, Mr. Ken Polsson made the first web entry in his timeline.
Mr. Polsson made his decision after reviewing this diagram and other evidence.
You will notice that INTEL has not published an 'OFFICIAL' notice about the so-called unauthorized biography posted by www.edgar-elsen.de/Sammlung, because they know it is true.
Steve |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by 邪薪邪谢芯谐
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
02 Jun 2005
|
袩褉懈胁械褌, 褋邪屑芯褍斜懈泄褑褘, 懈蟹胁懈薪褟泄褌械褋褜 胁褋械 薪械屑械写谢械薪薪芯 锌械褉械写 胁褋械屑懈 写褉褍谐懈屑懈 imc !
袠蟹胁懈薪褟泄褌泻褋褜 锌械褉械写 袙褝泄薪芯屑 ! 袩褉械泻褉邪褌懈褌械 斜芯褉芯褌褜褋褟 褋 锌褉芯谐褉械褋褋芯屑 懈 蟹写褉邪胁褘屑
褋屑褘褋谢芯屑! 袨薪懈 褋懈谢褜薪械械 胁邪褋 懈 褉邪蟹写邪胁褟褌 胁邪褋 胁褋械褏, 泻邪泻 斜褍泻邪褕泻褍! |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by 小胁械褌
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
02 Jun 2005
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袩褉懈胁械褌, 褋褍屑邪褋褕械写褕邪褟 袗薪薪邪! 袩褉械泻褉邪褌懈褌械 斜芯褉芯褌褜褋褟 褋 胁邪褕械泄 褋芯斜褋褌胁械薪薪芯泄 薪械泻芯屑锌械褌械薪褌薪芯褋褌褜褞! 协褌芯 斜芯谢械械 褋懈谢褜薪芯 褔械屑 袙褘 懈 褋芯泻褉褍褕懈褌 袙邪褋 泻邪泻 屑邪谢械薪褜泻芯械 薪邪褋械泻芯屑芯械! |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by 邪薪邪谢芯谐
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
02 Jun 2005
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袗褏, 小胁械褌! 袧械褌 褌邪泻芯泄 泻芯薪褋褌褉褍褑懈懈 胁 褉褍褋褋泻芯屑 褟蟹褘泻械: "袘芯谢械械 褋懈谢褜薪芯". 袝褋褌褜- : "小懈谢褜薪械械".
袧械 褋芯褌薪械胁邪褞褋褜, 褔褌芯 袙邪褕邪 泻芯屑锌械褌械薪褑懈褟 胁芯 胁褋械褏 芯褋褌邪谢褜薪褘褏 胁芯薪褉芯褋邪褏 - 褌邪泻邪褟 卸械 邪斜褉邪泻邪写邪斜褉邪. 袠 锌芯褌芯屑褍 薪懈 袙褘, 薪懈 胁邪褕懈 写褉褍蟹褜褟, 泻芯褌芯褉褘械 胁械褉褟褌 胁邪褕懈屑 蟹薪邪薪懈褟屑, 薪懈褔械谐芯 胁 薪懈褏 褋邪屑懈 薪械 锌芯薪懈屑邪褟, 薪邪胁褉械写懈褌褜 屑薪械 薪械 褋屑芯卸械褌械. 袛褉褍蟹械泄 胁邪褕懈褏 褋泻芯褉芯 胁褘谐芯薪褟褌 蟹邪 写芯谢谐懈 懈蟹 懈褏 芯斜懈褌械谢懈,邪 写褉褍谐懈械 imc 斜褍写褍褌 褌芯谢褜泻芯 褉邪写褘, 褌邪泻 泻邪泻 芯薪懈 褋锌褉邪胁械写谢懈胁芯 写褍屑邪褞褌, 褔褌芯 薪邪谐谢芯褋褌褜, 谐谢褍薪芯褋褌褜, 褋谢械锌芯褌邪 懈 写褉褍谐懈械 蟹邪屑械褔邪褌械谢褌薪褘械 泻邪褔械褋褌胁邪 胁邪褕懈褏 写褉褍蟹械泄 写芯谢卸薪褘 斜褘褌褜 "芯褑械薪械薪褘" 锌芯 蟹邪褋谢泻谐邪屑. 小褔邪褋褌谢懈胁芯谐芯 斜邪薪泻褉芯褌褋褌胁邪 ! 携 写褍屑邪褞, 褔褌芯 屑芯写械谢褜 屑芯械谐芯 屑褍卸邪 斜褍写械褌 谐芯褌芯胁邪 褔械褉械蟹 6-8 屑械褋褟褑械胁, ucimc 斜邪薪泻褉芯褌褋褌胁芯 - 褔械褉械蟹 2-3, 屑芯卸械褌 斜褘褌褜, - 褋泻芯褉械械. 袩芯 泻褉邪泄薪械泄 屑械褉械 械褖褢 芯写懈薪 屑械褋褟褑 写谢褟 "谐邪胁泻邪薪褜褟" 褍 胁邪褋 械褋褌褜. 袩芯写蟹褍斜褉懈褌械 褉褍褋褋泻褍褞 谐褉邪屑屑邪褌懈泻褍, 械褋谢懈 褏芯褌懈褌械 锌芯谢褜蟹芯胁邪褌褜褋褟 褝褌懈屑 褟蟹褘泻芯屑 薪械 褌芯谢褜泻芯 写芯屑邪 懈 薪械 褌芯谢褜泻芯 褋 屑邪屑芯泄. 袙邪褕 褉褍褋褋泻懈泄 - 胁械褋褜屑邪 锌谢芯褏. 小褔邪褋褌谢懈胁芯谐芯 锌褉芯胁邪谢邪! |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by 邪薪邪谢芯谐
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
02 Jun 2005
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袗褏, 小胁械褌! 袧械褌 褌邪泻芯泄 泻芯薪褋褌褉褍褑懈懈 胁 褉褍褋褋泻芯屑 褟蟹褘泻械: "袘芯谢械械 褋懈谢褜薪芯". 袝褋褌褜- : "小懈谢褜薪械械".
袧械 褋芯褌薪械胁邪褞褋褜, 褔褌芯 袙邪褕邪 泻芯屑锌械褌械薪褑懈褟 胁芯 胁褋械褏 芯褋褌邪谢褜薪褘褏 胁芯薪褉芯褋邪褏 - 褌邪泻邪褟 卸械 邪斜褉邪泻邪写邪斜褉邪. 袠 锌芯褌芯屑褍 薪懈 袙褘, 薪懈 胁邪褕懈 写褉褍蟹褜褟, 泻芯褌芯褉褘械 胁械褉褟褌 胁邪褕懈屑 蟹薪邪薪懈褟屑, 薪懈褔械谐芯 胁 薪懈褏 褋邪屑懈 薪械 锌芯薪懈屑邪褟, 薪邪胁褉械写懈褌褜 屑薪械 薪械 褋屑芯卸械褌械. 袛褉褍蟹械泄 胁邪褕懈褏 褋泻芯褉芯 胁褘谐芯薪褟褌 蟹邪 写芯谢谐懈 懈蟹 懈褏 芯斜懈褌械谢懈,邪 写褉褍谐懈械 imc 斜褍写褍褌 褌芯谢褜泻芯 褉邪写褘, 褌邪泻 泻邪泻 芯薪懈 褋锌褉邪胁械写谢懈胁芯 写褍屑邪褞褌, 褔褌芯 薪邪谐谢芯褋褌褜, 谐谢褍薪芯褋褌褜, 褋谢械锌芯褌邪 懈 写褉褍谐懈械 蟹邪屑械褔邪褌械谢褌薪褘械 泻邪褔械褋褌胁邪 胁邪褕懈褏 写褉褍蟹械泄 写芯谢卸薪褘 斜褘褌褜 "芯褑械薪械薪褘" 锌芯 蟹邪褋谢泻谐邪屑. 小褔邪褋褌谢懈胁芯谐芯 斜邪薪泻褉芯褌褋褌胁邪 ! 携 写褍屑邪褞, 褔褌芯 屑芯写械谢褜 屑芯械谐芯 屑褍卸邪 斜褍写械褌 谐芯褌芯胁邪 褔械褉械蟹 6-8 屑械褋褟褑械胁, ucimc 斜邪薪泻褉芯褌褋褌胁芯 - 褔械褉械蟹 2-3, 屑芯卸械褌 斜褘褌褜, - 褋泻芯褉械械. 袩芯 泻褉邪泄薪械泄 屑械褉械 械褖褢 芯写懈薪 屑械褋褟褑 写谢褟 "谐邪胁泻邪薪褜褟" 褍 胁邪褋 械褋褌褜. 袩芯写蟹褍斜褉懈褌械 褉褍褋褋泻褍褞 谐褉邪屑屑邪褌懈泻褍, 械褋谢懈 褏芯褌懈褌械 锌芯谢褜蟹芯胁邪褌褜褋褟 褝褌懈屑 褟蟹褘泻芯屑 薪械 褌芯谢褜泻芯 写芯屑邪 懈 薪械 褌芯谢褜泻芯 褋 屑邪屑芯泄. 袙邪褕 褉褍褋褋泻懈泄 - 胁械褋褜屑邪 锌谢芯褏. 小褔邪褋褌谢懈胁芯谐芯 锌褉芯胁邪谢邪! |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by joe urbana
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
10 Jun 2005
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so this is what all the bourgie kids are doing these days. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by curious
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
12 Jun 2005
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And who would be these burgie kids, Joe ?Those, who apologized, or those-main offenders, who didn't , no matter what?
I would bet that the second. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by joe urbana
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
12 Jun 2005
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jesus you guys are as serious as the stalinists. i was just
having a joke, i mean, look at the kids who hang out at the
IMC. nothing personal against them, but they are coming
from a certain direction of conditioning, namely that which
engenders strong egos, namely bourgeois. sorry about the
confusion. actually, no i'm not :) |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by joe urbana
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
12 Jun 2005
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that is to say, in deleuzian terms, that the IMC is a
bourgeois reterritorialization on previous mass
movements. didn't lenin write about naive anarchism a
long time ago? |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by curious
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
13 Jun 2005
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Joe Urbana and others, what if instead of attempts to unify such opposing things as anarchy and current much deeper than before ucimc dependence on big money (after the purchase of the building)and/or straightening out local justice in the more than controversial case of P. Thompson, main forces of ucimc would start to participate in such obviously important and needed issue as affordable health care in Illinois like it has been achieved , for example, in Vermont, ah? Unless, of course, these secret contributors would not allow ucimc to take this cause. Jump on the opportunity at least partially to clean up the mess that some of your leaders pulled you in because of their enormous egos and extreme narrowmindness, would yah? |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by joe urbana
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
13 Jun 2005
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that's all nice, but how about CASH DISTRIBUTION to the
members of the communiuty, cut out the bourgie
organizing-kid middleman and show that we have learned
something from the centrally-planned economies of the
past? i mean, this is stalin's clique all over again.
how about training members of the community to use arms?
to fight the middle class and its police? i didn't think you
would be comfortable with that. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by curious
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
13 Jun 2005
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And, by the way, Joe, if main contributors of ucimc can have objections against affordable Health Plan for Illinois then the current situation with ucimc is really very bad, and I am very surprized that 'malatesta' or any other imcist(a) can even think about ANY cooperation. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by joe urbana
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
13 Jun 2005
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just curious curious,
you seem very concerned with historical accuracy. is this
the case? |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by joe urbana
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
13 Jun 2005
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to clarify: there is the use of historical data, and then there
is the judging of historical data. you are judging the
historical data I presented rather than, say, using it to
brainstorm. and that is fine, many of us like our eyes
dotted and out tees crossed, there is nothing wrong with
that. but use is a use too.
remember, this is data, it doesn't care whether it fits within
an historical schema or not. it only does what it does, in this
case, provoke a rather heated response that I am at a loss to
respond to, because I am not sure what object has
(presumably [?]) been threatened by the apparent (history-as-data-to-be-judged) inaccuracy. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by curious
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
13 Jun 2005
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Sober up, Joe Urbana. You seem to be drunk, high or both Is it the case? I am done with discussion, take care. |
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Re: UCIMC Video Working Group Statement of Apology |
by joe urbana
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
13 Jun 2005
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curious,
I assure you I'm quite sober :)
listen, I'm too tired myself right now to type about mixing
history the way a dj would mix older sound data to make
others dance, but that is what I am trying to get at.
I get the feeling time and time again that there is a
part of the left that is too sincere for its own good. maybe
it is difficult to admit that the neo-conservatives have been
much more effective at lying than the left has. it hurts to
feel like a sucker.
but why not learn a little bit about these techniques rather
than writing them off as the delusions of a drunkard?
peace. |
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UC IMC Steering Group Statement of Clarification and Apology |
by ML
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 Jun 2005
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The UC IMC Steering group consensed on a statement regarding this issue on June 16, 2005. It can be found at:
http://www.ucimc.org/feature/display/52966/index.php |
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