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News :: Peace |
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Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
Current rating: 0 |
by Kimberlie Kranich
Email: kakranich (nospam) yahoo.com (unverified!) |
27 Nov 2005
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Champaign, IL. Eight members of the Champaign-Urbana based Anti-War, Anti-Racism Effort (AWARE) stood Sunday morning on the sidewalk at the entrance of St. John’s Lutheran Church in Champaign with signs that included the messages “Will Christians Stand For Peace?” “Choose Life, End War,” “Is Torture A Christian Value?” and “Missouri Synod Lutherans For Life Say No to War,” while attempting to distribute literature and a letter to church leaders asking them to take a stand against the war in Iraq and bring US troops home. About half a dozen members of St. John’s Lutheran church spoke to AWARE members. Others smiled and took their literature, some shook their heads and refused their literature and still others avoided making eye contact. This is the first in a series of planned Sunday church actions by AWARE between now and Christmas. |
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“We felt compelled because of our religious tradition to be able to stand in front of St. John’s to express our belief about the morality of this war and hopefully engage members of this church in that dialogue,” said AWARE member Durl Kruse.
AWARE member Karen Medina, who is an Ecumenical Franciscan, talked with a World War II veteran. She said the veteran told her that when the troops came back he didn’t want them to be treated the way they were treated after Vietnam. He was against the war and for the troops coming home but not without the people being behind it.
“We actually support our troops,” Ms. Medina said. “We don’t like what they are being asked to do. So it’s not the troops themselves that we’re against, it’s our leaders that asked them to be there and the reasons we asked them to be there.”
Another male member of the church approached the AWARE group and asked what they were doing. The group explained then asked if he would take a prepared letter to the pastor. The church member, who wished to remain anonymous, declined. “I just wanted to find out what they were doing,” he said. “I really don’t care for any of this kind of stuff. I think these people are misguided and have no clue of what’s going on. But I see they’re on public property, so (laughter)…”
A man who identified himself as a church elder but declined to give his name, also approached the group, asked what they were doing and accepted the group’s offer to deliver a prepared letter to the church’s pastors.
When asked if he would take the group’s literature for the congregation, the elder said that he would have to preview it and make sure it is “in accordance with what we would say. We can’t do anything political and take any true stance one way or the other.”
The AWARE letter states, in part:
“Dear Pastors Elliott,Wright and Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church,
Today we stand outside your church not in disrespect but rather as an invitation to you and your members to join us in demanding our government end this immoral and illegal war in Iraq. We ask that our troops be removed from Iraq as immediately as practical and safe. In the spirit of this Christmas season, what better time for Christians and people of conscience to proclaim and act upon Christ’s message of ‘Peace on Earth and Goodwill Toward Others’ than by calling for the end of the US military occupation of Iraq.”
AWARE did not attempt to contact members of St. John’s Lutheran church before today’s action.
The Kruses of Urbana, who both grew up in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, contacted Pastor Mark Elliott of St. John’s Lutheran Church in August 2004 to talk with him about the war.
“We asked him about his feelings about the war and if it might be an issue to be discussed in the church,” Mrs. Kruse said. “He said No and that he would probably consider himself a Republican. He supported George Bush. He was in favor of the war and he said the war fulfilled the just war theory which he discussed with us. He said that our views were heretical and that we wouldn’t fit in in this church and that we were naïve in our beliefs that the church should speak out about the war in Iraq. So one of the reasons I’m out here today is not so much that I’ve left the church but the church has left me.”
Mrs. Kruse said after her meeting with Pastor Elliott she wrote him a letter. “I told him that it was sad that people who really cared about other people and had concerns about world events were not welcome and our views were not considered appropriate for the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod,” Mrs. Kruse said. According to her, Pastor Elliott never responded to her letter.
Pastor Mark Elliott did not return phone messages left for him at the church and his residence before this article was published.
AWARE member Carl Estabrook said he participated in today’s action to “mobilize some people from this particular church and other churches around town to think about the circumstances of the war and why they might want to be opposed to it and work against it.”
Ms. Medina added: “What I’d really like to do is have the churches set up a study group where they’re actually conversing about these things because I think talking about it and studying about it will actually produce possible solutions and ways to do the right things. And I believe that churches are afraid of doing that right now because they are afraid of turning people off. They are afraid of people stopping coming to church. So right now what they are saying is if the war in Iraq is an important issue, then go somewhere else where other people talk about it.”
The sign that prompted the most spirited discussion was “Choose Life, End War.”
St. John’s Lutheran Church member Steve Ruhlig and AWARE member Durl Kruse had a lengthy talk. I spoke to each separately after their discussion.
“I believe that it’s a just war as St. Augustine posited and I also am supportive of them having a right to express the views,” Mr. Ruhlig said. “But what I think is inconsistent is if you have a sign that says “Choose Life,” which is offensive to a person who is pro-life and this church is pro-life and that’s what I’m pointing out. If he wants to win the hearts and minds of the people of this congregation, how is it appropriate to be offensive in that case? I’m not suggesting he doesn’t have the right. I’m saying be savvy. Be politically smart about it. That is a clearly inflammatory statement and it raises the question, ‘Is he really here to change our hearts and minds’ or is he here for some other reason to illicit a response that isn’t in relation to the Iraq war and that’s what I was challenging him about.”
Mr. Kruse responded: “I think it’s important that if the churches feel strongly in a consistent ethic of life and they’re against abortion, they also ought to be as active and aggressive about being against a war of choice and a pre-emptive war. And I don’t believe the just war theory justifies from a Christian standpoint, our occupation of Iraq. So, I do not see personally an inconsistency from my view in terms of seeing life affirming values whether it be against the war or against abortion but I also believe in pro-choice because I believe in law and a separation of church and state.”
Mr. Ruhlig continued: “I don’t feel that there’s a need for political comment to be reflected in our church body. What we do is respect the word of God and that’s what drives the content of what occurs here. So to have a secular influence to come in and speak to our church I don’t know that this is the place for it. We’re not here as a political organization. We’re here to share the forgiveness of Jesus Christ with the world. It’s not appropriate for us to take every secular issue that comes along. If somebody picketed next week, would it be appropriate for us to dialogue with them? No. No, I don’t see that as consistent. I participate in civic expression of my politics as well. But should I introduce that into my church? I don’t think so. I don’t think that’s the appropriate place for it.”
Pastor James Wright, also of St. John’s Lutheran Church, was unaware of AWARE’s presence outside his church. I called him at his home, reported on the morning’s events and asked him if his church would sit down with members from AWARE to discuss the Iraq war.
“We don’t invite any political action groups to come to our church and speak,” Pastor Wright said. “I wouldn’t make an exception for this group. We teach what the Bible says about our behavior and we leave voting up to people. We might inform our congregation about issues such as personal morality and things of that nature. I have not addressed the war and I don’t believe anyone else has. We pray for our leaders whatever party they represent. We pray for them as the scriptures instruct us.”
The Kruses, who attended the November 20 church service at St. John’s Lutheran Church, believe that St. John’s does take political stances. Mrs. Kruse referred me to the church’s website, www.stjohn-lcms.org. Its on-line bulletin from November 20 includes a hand-out on a “Marriage Protection Referendum.” According to the church’s website:
“Today someone will be in the overflow after each service with a Petition regarding the Marriage Protection Referendum. The purpose of this Petition is to get it on the November 2006 ballot so that each individual will be allowed to vote on this subject instead of being at the mercy of judges to determine what marriage is. The Referendum reads as follows:
“Shall the Illinois General Assembly submit an amendment to Article IX of the Illinois State Constitution to the voters of the State of Illinois at large at the next General Election stating as follows:
‘To secure and preserve the benefit of marriage for our society and for future generations of children, a marriage between a man and a woman is the only legal union that shall be valid or recognized in this State’.” Five Hundred Thousand (500,000) signatures are needed in order for this to be on the November ballot in 2006. You must be a registered voter in the State of Illinois to sign this Petition. Please exercise your freedom by stopping by the table in the overflow and signing this Petition.”
Mr. Kruse said AWARE will visit a different church each Sunday between Thanksgiving and Christmas “during the Christian season of peace on earth.”
Next week the group will be outside the entrance of the First Christian Church at 3601 S. Staley Road in Champaign from 9:45am – 10:45am. According to Mr. Kruse, the First Christian Church is a large fundamentalist church attended by US Congressman Tim Johnson. |
This work is in the public domain. |
Comments
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by anti-war churchgoer
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
28 Nov 2005
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I would ask you to consider that the use of the word "confront" as your approach to this is not particularly helpful. Perhaps instead you might consider trying to "engage" church members. In saying this, I'm assuming you're not trying to win an argument, but establish a dialogue. If so, then "confrontation" is a poor way to go about it. You might want to think through your objectives, and ask yourselves whether you're taking the most promising approach to achieving them. |
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I will confront. Not sure if others will, and I don't care. |
by Jean Baptiste
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
28 Nov 2005
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I can't speak for others so I will only speak
for myself.
Dialogue is all well and good. Enjoy it while
you can.
I feel that churches still need to be confronted the way they have been confronted for more than 2500 years now.
If they are not confronted they will continue supporting not just wars, but
oppression, class abuse, fraud and hypocracy.
Will YOU purchase a shorter purgatory for yourself?
Love ya,
Moliere. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by anti-war churchgoer
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
28 Nov 2005
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It may be emotionally satisfying to confront these folks, but it will ultimately lead to the closing off of dialogue. If you want allies, you must listen to them before you speak your own mind. Only by understanding their views -- which includes their biases, fears, and personal needs -- can you begin to change the way they think. To secure peace, be peaceable. To gain respect, be respectful. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by pro-life anti-war Christian
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
28 Nov 2005
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Wow. I don't know where to start, but I'm very disappointed that AWARE chose to confront a church without first seeking dialogue. I consider myself pro-life, and I consistently oppose war, the death penalty, and abortion. How can the Kruses carry signs that say that they are pro-life if they support the right to murder unborn babies? Why can't they take it upon themselves to learn the rationale behind the concept of Just War so that they can effectively argue against its application in the case of the Iraq war and thereby effectively convince people that it is an immoral war? AWARE's actions seem more like primal scream therapy for its participants rather than a good faith effort to change people's minds. Also, I don't see how Jan Kruse can base her conclusion, "the church left me," on her interaction with the pastor of one church. Pastors are human, too, and can make mistakes. We should try to work to change the churches from within, starting with our own church.
I give the Kruses a little credit for at least confronting a church to which they once belonged. But now AWARE is moving on to confront a church that they seem to have no knowledge of, other than that it is Tim Johnson's church. The Christmas season is much more than the "Christian season of peace on earth." It commemorates the birth of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. Please consider what this means to the members of the churches you are confronting. Don't apply your own criteria about the "meaning of Christmas" to others who might have a different idea. Otherwise, you will find yourself losing supporters rather than gaining them. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by Ricky Baldwin
baldwinricky (nospam) yahoo.com (unverified) |
Current rating: 0
28 Nov 2005
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Bravo! I think these folks deserve all our thanks for having the courage of their convictions, something that I think is in short supply.
The very idea that one's ethics and beliefs about how others are treated beyond one's front doorstep would not be an "appropriate" matter for discussion at church makes me wonder what is! I could be wrong, but the way I read the Christian Bible, the religion prescribed seems more than just staring at one's own navel. There's a lot of politics in there! I don't like all the politics in there, but that's a different discussion.
Besides that church is clearly political already. And probably illegally so. Those in charge are just selective about it -- they'll make an exception in order to take a bigotted stance, but not to oppose the slaughter of innocent children and other civilians for State power and Mammon, as long as they are different than us somehow. Hm. Com eto think of it, maybe they are consistent.
And this concern for the effectiveness of the "Church Presence" group's tactics is, well, touching. But I feel it is misguided. Anyone has the right to criticize, don't get me wrong. But that doesn't mean every criticism is valid. It is entirely possible that nobody will be converted by these activities, or any activity, but it seems the organizers of this event have thought long and hard about what would be the most effective -- even though a few people seem to easily assume that the whole idea is just knee-jerk, without planning or forethought in the least. Ironic.
I think a lot of what I've read about this is, frankly, oversensitive. No one is disrupting any services or trespassing, nailing 95 theses to any doors, etc. No one is throwing money changers out of anywhere, accusing anybody of being a generation of vipers or any such well-respected behavior. The only accusations so far are from church officials and church goers who support the war. I suspect that many other church members oppose or at least question the war, but their personal routines are such that they are unlikely to see anti-war demonstrations in the course of their daily lives elsewhere. Don't they have a right to be reached, to be informed, to have the same access to open discussion of these vital ethical and life-changing historical issues, regardless of what their church leaders might prefer?
Don't the people of Iraq, and the soldiers we've sent over there, have a right to expect at least that somebody would push the envelope just a tad on their behalf? Not just for the sake of pushing it, but not shying away, either, if it seems best? |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by I don't understand
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
28 Nov 2005
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The world obviously doesn't want to support USA in this war. Other countries withdrew their troops or didn't send their troops at the first place. The resistance inside of the country - Iraq("Insurgency") is steadily increasing with time. Both of these facts are pretty obvious for everyone who is following this topic. Aren't these churchgoers American? Aren't they having relatives among these American troops who are practically set up for execution in Iraq? Why is it necessary to " carefully plan " "dialog" with them? There are only two things which might be done urgently for American troops in Iraq, and they are the immediate withdrawal of these troops or the mandatory draft to reinforce these troops. The second measure seems to be even more terrible and suicidal for the USA than the start of this invasive and unjust Iraqi war at the first place.
So, once again , why is it necessary to be so "diplomatic" convincing American fathers mothers, brothers, and simply other Americans that the troops should be withdrawn ? |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by anti-war churchgoer
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
29 Nov 2005
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For me, it's not about whether it's okay to "confront" people outside church. Of course it's okay. But it's not effective. Consider that churchgoers are more than likely rather strong in their convictions. The question, then, is how to engage them on their terms and change their views. Confrontation will not work. Dialogue will. I'm not sensitive to the tactic, I'm mystified why anyone would think this could possibly be effective. I'm not on the same page as Pro-Life, but I do agree with her/him that it seems more of a primal scream than a realistic approach to changing folks' views. If people want to picket churches, fine. But they shouldn't expect their efforts to have an impact on anyone but themselves. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by I don't understand
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
29 Nov 2005
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I need to agree with you , anti-war churchgoer, as it seems that about ninety percent of what AWARE is doing can't and wouldn't work., like it is producing all kinds of smoke screens whether on purpose or not, I don't know. This case with this war is so vital and so urgent that it should have no room to produce ANY smoke screens, but AWARE still managed to find some. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by I don't understand
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
29 Nov 2005
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To be more specific, I can't understand why it is possible to continue now this pro-life, pro-choice debates when it is American troops who should be urgently saved, and this debates have no relevancy to the issue of their safety whatsoever. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by pro-life anti-war Christian
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
29 Nov 2005
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Hello, "don't understand." Being pro-life should mean being anti-war and anti-death penalty as well as being anti-abortion. However AWARE's tactics in having signs saying that they are pro-life when in fact the people who were carrying the signs are pro-choice seems like it was meant to offend and antagonize churchgoers. Tactless antics like that will not win over people to their point of view, especially when they emphasize the fact that they are pro-choice (at least in this article), and for most of the churchgoers, murdering unborn children will never be acceptable. AWARE is sending mixed messages, it's offensive to many, and it's probably out of ignorance of Christian beliefs. This is where dialogue would be useful, but from the attitudes I've seen expressed by AWARE members in the article, and by Ricky Baldwin, it seems like they are blinded to any ideas other than their own. They need to seek common ground. Lecturing Christians what they think the Bible says when they seem not to believe in it themselves makes them appear like clowns. I'm not saying that there aren't AWARE members that are Christians, but they seem not to be taking part in this dialogue in any effective manner. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by I don't understand
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
29 Nov 2005
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Tell me about it! I have been dealing with AWARE people and gotten the very low opinion about them, themselves, their ways of acting, etc. The problem here is, however, much more important and urgent. As I have written in previous comment, the troops should be withdrawn , they are currently set up for execution, and ALL Americans should be united, trying to achieve it. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by It's The Season!
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
29 Nov 2005
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"Church Presence" outside local churches during the Season of Peace on Earth!
A working group of AWARE members has been carefully and thoughtfully planning how to engage area churches in a dialogue regarding the war and occupation of Iraq. We have decided one such way is to hold a "Presence", not a "protest", outside local churches on the Sundays between Thanksgiving and Christmas. The next planned "Presence" is this coming Sunday, December 4 and then the following two Sundays of December 11 and 18. A possible Christmas Eve Presence is also being discussed. During this "Season of Peace" you are invited to join and stand with others in a respectful presence outside designated area churches. The "Presence" will be held between the church's two Sunday morning services.
Purpose:
Some area churches have declined to speak about the current war, the permitting of torture and the occupation of Iraq by the US military. Our purpose is to encourage congregation members to engage in a discussion among themselves or with members of those outside the church regarding the morality of this war and toll being taken on ordinary Iraqi citizens, US soldiers, military families and our nation's economy.
Plan:
AWARE Working group will stand outside designated churches in the C-U Community on the identified Sundays during the "Season of Peace on Earth" holding signs, sharing information and expressing a call for discussion and engagement. Our call will be to members of churches to address and acknowledge a moral component that we as US citizens share when our complicit agreement is given through our taxes and voting. We call for a need to question a perceived desire not to engage by some in the religious community. We also call for dialogue with those who support our government's policy; a policy many currently argue is bringing death, destruction, and instability to our world. We desire to give space for discussion especially to the voices of the minority inside churches who may want to speak for peace but may be fearful of doing so.
Procedure:
Join with others as we stand for peace and begin the process of dialogue with local community churches. It is our intent to engage with and challenge church communities in this important moral discussion. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by Don't understand "Idon't understand"??
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
04 Dec 2005
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I am having a very hard time following "I don't understand"'s commentary.
What do you not understand about AWARE and what it is trying to do?
I can't believe you have really paid any attention to what programs, discussions, protests etc. that AWARE has been doing for the last 3 years or so. Did you see the Eyes Wide Open exibit at many places in town ?
Have you not read the NewsGazette articles and/or attended the programs with the local Muslim family that has recently suffered so many tragedys because of the Iraq war?
Have you not ever seen or been aware of the weekly - now montly - street protests against the illegal war and continued occupation of Iraq? How can you not be "aware" that most of AWARE's work is vehemently anti-war and that they want nothing better than to have the troops home now ?
I am very confused by your postings - I guess you must be confused as well. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by pro-life anti-war Christian
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
05 Dec 2005
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"Don't understand Don't understand," there is no reason to belittle "Don't understand" during this season of God's gift to humanity, the promise of salvation and eternal life through our Savior, Jesus Christ. I understand this person's frustration with AWARE, because some AWARE members are so blinded by their own self-importance that they don't pay attention to the opinions of others. Your comments are an example of this. If you read carefully, "Don't understand" opposes the war in Iraq, but just disagrees with your tactics, so this person is an ally, not an enemy, and yet you ridicule them. I, too, oppose the war in Iraq, yet AWARE members criticize me and minimize my concerns, saying that they know best. Well, they have that right, but they need to know that others have a different opinion, even others who oppose the war as they do. They could choose to unite with churches but instead choose confrontation during a time of year that holds a lot of meaning for Christians, a meaning that seems to escape the members of AWARE. Well, I've had my say. So, how did yesterday's event go? |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by don't understand anti-war christian
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
10 Dec 2005
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The comments to "I don't understand" were in no way meant to belittle that person. I just have a hard time believing that the individual
has paid much attention to the many things that AWARE has done over the past years.
The comments did not in any way belittle the person. Many of AWARE's own members do not always agree with one another on methods and ways of reaching out to people.
We are trying to reach out to Christians during the season of peace for the very reason that it IS the season of peace and we feel like this is a great time to make the point that Jesus stood for peace on earth.
Many of AWARE's membership are Christians and many also are pro-life.
We just don't feel like demonizing those who are pro-choice. Also individuals do not have to be Christians to have moral beliefs and principles. I know of no AWARE members who feel like their way is the best and only way to do things but everyone must do what they feel in their own heart to protest this horrible war and the U.S. governement's human rights abuses around the world.
Silence in the face of great wrongs is a very bad idea and one that I feel is not the way of a true follower of the things Jesus taught. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by pro-life anti-war Christian
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
12 Dec 2005
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You make some very good points. For instance:
"Silence in the face of great wrongs is a very bad idea and one that I feel is not the way of a true follower of the things Jesus taught."
Now reconcile that with:
"We just don't feel like demonizing those who are pro-choice."
I sense some double standards and hypocrisy here. You seem to feel free to pick and choose what Jesus taught and cultivate an almost intentional misunderstanding of said teachings. My point is that if you're a Christian, you have to look at the whole picture. That is what I am trying to do. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by Shannon
shannontaylor5679 (nospam) msn.com (unverified) |
Current rating: 0
16 Dec 2005
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What is wrong with Christianity today? The "new Christians" seem to embrace warmongering and wraping oneself in the flag as though it was a concept that Jesus Christ endorsed and participated in....they have gotten so far away from Christ's teachings that if he were to return today he would be very disappointed in the people calling themselves Christians and doing what they are doing.
What these people are doing is to try to wake up the members who go along like sheep with these "new Christian" ideals that have no relationship to either Jesus or what he stood for and taught, and in most cases Jesus was opposed to, i.e., moneygrubbing, hatemongering, classism, elitism, etc.
The "new Christian" churches are so politically involved, that they have lost all sight of what Jesus said about giving unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's.
It is good to see some Christian churches taking the initive to push back against the forces who have decided that politics is the job number one of the churches, and dirty politics too, politics that permit the most immoral political stances including nationalism, racism, sexism, etc., all of which Jesus stood up and openly opposed.
It is high time people stopped allowing the churches to intimidate them because they "somehow" speak for God. We all need to speak openly about the immoral bent that the "new Christians" are embracing and call it for what it is, a thinly disguised agenda for the right wing neo cons in Washington.
They all need to be reminded that their tax exempt status is being monitered and that the future of the standing that allows them tax exemption may be pulled if they insist to participate in influencing elections, and deciding governmental policies for this country. They can't have it both ways. And their members need to do some soul searching about the true teachings of Jesus versus the bastardized version of Jesus's church. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by by pro-life anti-war Christian
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
16 Dec 2005
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Shannon,
You make some good points about some _national_ Christian groups and coalitions being involved in political activities and positions that are un-Christian. However, there is a difference between protesting those groups and organizations, and interfering in the spiritual life of local Christian churches. Fundamentalist Christians are NOT a uniform group of people who march lock-step with neoconservatives. Statements like "It is high time people stopped allowing the churches to intimidate them because they 'somehow' speak for God" are particularly unhelpful. You are stating what you believe to be Jesus's teachings, so how are you any more credible than the people you criticize? Or are you not a Christian (which gives you even less right to claim to know what Jesus taught)?
With its local church protests, excuse me, "presences," AWARE is giving the impression (rightly or wrongly) that it is persecuting Christians. AWARE's attempts at true dialogue with these churches appear to be weak at best, and give the impression that they are either too lazy to try, or simply don't care. Somehow, it's easier, more convenient, to interfere in the spiritual life of worshipers than it is to talk with church leaders and members about their positions on the war in Iraq at a time when it would not interfere with worship. This demonstrates a lack of respect, and I'm sure that this lack of respect is not going unnoticed by church members and others in the community. I've heard AWARE members say, "Oh, we have the right to do this," or "it makes us feel better even if it doesn't have any effect on the churches," and those are self-centered, arrogant excuses. Think about what you are doing, and what your motivations are. Are you doing this because you hate Christians? Are you doing this because it makes you feel better? Or are you doing this because you think it will make a difference and change people's minds? The latter is the only legitimate reason, but again, think of how you might be interfering in the spiritual lives of others (as unimportant as you may personally think that to be), and try to come up with some more respectful and effective way to accomplish your goals. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by *Let the Dialogue Continue*
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
16 Dec 2005
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Pharisee Nation
by John Dear (excerpts from 2/15/05 common dreams article)
I was not at all surprised that George W. Bush was reelected president. As I travel the country speaking out against war, injustice and nuclear weapons, I see many people consciously siding with the culture of war, choosing the path of violence, supporting corporate greed, rampant militarism, and global domination. I see many others swept up in the raging current of patriotism. Since most of these people, beginning with the president, claim to be Christian, I am ashamed and appalled that they support war and systemic injustice, that they do it in the name of God, and that they feign fidelity to the nonviolent Jesus who gave his life resisting institutionalized injustice.
I used to think these all-American Christians never read the Gospel, that they simply chose not to be authentic disciples of the nonviolent Jesus. Now, alas, I think they have indeed chosen discipleship, but not to the hero of the Gospels, Jesus. Instead, through their actions, they have become disciples of the devout, religious, all-powerful, murderous Pharisees who killed him.
A Culture of Pharisees
We have become a culture of Pharisees. Instead of practicing an authentic spirituality of compassion, nonviolence, love and peace, we as a collective people have become self-righteous, arrogant, powerful, murderous hypocrites who dominate and kill others in the name of God. The Pharisees supported the brutal Roman rulers and soldiers, and lived off the comforts of the empire by running an elaborate banking system, which charged an exorbitant fee for ordinary people just to worship God in the Temple. Since they taught that God was present only in the Temple, they were able to control the entire population. If anyone opposed their power or violated their law, the Pharisees could kill them on the spot, even in the holy sanctuary.
Most North American Christians are now becoming more and more like these hypocritical Pharisees. We side with the rulers, the bankers, and the corporate millionaires and billionaires. We run the Pentagon, bless the bombing raids, support executions, make nuclear weapons and seek global domination for America as if that was what the nonviolent Jesus wants. And we dismiss anyone who disagrees with us.
We have become a mean, vicious people, what the bible calls “stiff-necked people.” And we do it all with the mistaken belief that we have the blessing of God.
In the past, empires persecuted religious groups and threatened them into passivity and silence. Now these so-called Christians run the American empire, and teach a subtle spirituality of empire to back up their power in the name of God. This spirituality of empire insists that violence saves us, might makes right, war is justified, bombing raids are blessed, nuclear weapons offer the only true security from terrorism, and the good news is not love for our enemies, but the elimination of them. The empire is working hard these days to tell the nation--and the churches--what is moral and immoral, sinful and holy. It denounces certain personal behavior as immoral, in order to distract us from the blatant immorality and mortal sin of the U.S. bombing raids which have left 100,000 Iraqis dead, or our ongoing development of thousands of weapons of mass destruction. Our Pharisee rulers would have us believe that our wars and our weapons are holy and blessed by God.
Just because the culture and the cultural church have joined with the empire and its wars does not mean that we all have to go along with such heresy, or fall into despair as if nothing can be done.
Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons (and daughters) of God. Matthew 5:9
Rev. John Dear, S.J. is a Jesuit priest, pastor, peace activist, organizer, lecturer, retreat leader, and the author/editor of 20 books on peace and justice.
Anti War Anti Racism Effort meets Sundays @5:00pm at the IMC located at the old Urbana Post Office at Elm and Broadway Street Urbana Illinois. All are Welcome! |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by by pro-life anti-war Christian
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
19 Dec 2005
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Thanks for posting the John Dear article, but posting an article from a third party is not "dialogue." I'd like to see some original arguments that are germane to AWARE's church protests and that actually address my concerns!
Since we've been diverted to the topic of John Dear, let me say that he doesn't speak for me when he says that "Instead of practicing an authentic spirituality of compassion, nonviolence, love and peace, we as a collective people have become self-righteous, arrogant, powerful, murderous hypocrites who dominate and kill others in the name of God." I think that he is confusing a dangerous minority within the Christian right with Christians as a "collective people." We need to learn to be a little more discriminating and fight against those who preach a false gospel, but not belittle the vast majority of Christians who are concerned with improving the world and helping humanity. I'm not a self-hating Christian, and I make no apologies for that. John Dear's comments are likely to give comfort to those who hate Christianity, but do little to solve the problem of war, and that is unfortunate. Finally, we have this:
"The empire is working hard these days to tell the nation--and the churches--what is moral and immoral, sinful and holy... Just because the culture and the cultural church have joined with the empire and its wars does not mean that we all have to go along with such heresy, or fall into despair as if nothing can be done."
As a Christian, the Bible guides me on what is moral and immoral, sinful and holy. I don't see moral precepts being handed down to me by the government. I DO see a government and right-wing religious interests trying to drum up support for a war that benefits these right-wing interests. It has little to do with Christianity and much to do with economics, so instead of beating up on Christianity, I'd like to see people get to the heart of the problem and address the direct causes of this war and oppose those who are truly responsible. And to the extent that the "cultural church" (whatever that is) suports the empire in its wars, church members need to work within their churches to express their opposition to the war. AWARE's approach of protesting outside local churches is not conducive to this effort. True dialogue would be. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by AWARE "church presence" is conducive to dialogue!
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
19 Dec 2005
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Recently a working group of AWARE the local Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort has decided to stand outside of various local churches not in disrespect, but rather as an invitation to the church members to join us in calling for our government to end this immoral and illegal war in Iraq. We ask that our troops be removed from Iraq as immediate as practical and safe. In the spirit of this Christmas season, what better time for Christians and people of conscience to proclaim and act upon Christ's message of Peace on Earth and Goodwill Toward Others than by calling for the end of the US military occupation of Iraq.
We are sure that most church members now know that the war in Iraq was based on distorted intelligence. The leaders of our country claimed as fact that we were in imminent danger from Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction and that Iraq was linked to the attacks of September 11th. Today we know this was not true. In fact, much evidence demonstrates that the leaders of our government knew their intelligence to be faulty before we invaded Iraq on March 19th. 2003. But half-truths and contrived evidence were still used to persuade the American public this war was necessary for the very survival of our country and our way of life.
As a result in this, our country's war of choice, we preemptively invaded another nation and its people against the wishes of the UN weapons inspectors, many of our traditional allies, and literally millions of people worldwide. Many prominent religious leaders spoke out strongly against this war. They pleaded for more diplomacy, cooperation with other nations and respect for international law.
As a result of our haste, today tens of thousands of US soldiers have been killed, injured, or psychologically wounded. Equally as sad, hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis have also experienced these similar tragedies of war. Today Iraq is a country in turmoil, disarray, and of unspeakable violence.
Is it not time for people of faith and conscience to stand up and proclaim an end to this madness of preemptive and perpetual war and constant use of fear to scare the public? Should not people of faith and conscience be proclaiming an end to militarism, occupation, and torture in our names? Should we not be acting upon Jesus' proclamation to be peacemakers and not war makers by calling for a more hopeful and life affirming direction for our country?
AWARE members would gladly meet in respectful dialogue to discuss these issues with members of local congregations. We also invites members of churches and other places of worship to join us as we meet on Sunday nights at 5:00 PM. at the Independent Media Center in downtown Urbana at 202 E. Elm in our work for peace and justice.
It is our hope that those in the religious community who share similar life affirming values might also actively work for peace with a message of hope during this Season of Peace on Earth. |
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Final comments |
by pro-life anti-war Christian
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
21 Dec 2005
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As Christmas approaches, I feel obligated to say some final words about AWARE's church protests ("presences"). By saying that Christmas is the "Christian season of peace on earth," AWARE is distorting the true meaning of Christmas to Christians, which is to celebrate the birth of our Savior, Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus emphasized peace in his teachings, but he taught much more than that, and if that is the extent of your solidarity with Christians, and if you openly disrepect other Christian teachings (murder is sin, immorality is sin, etc.), you are using them as a means to an end, and you will get no respect, and you will change no one's mind on the war. (From my perspective, good Christians already oppose the war, but that's just my opinion--I'm not the ultimate judge of that.) Instead, you are unnecessarily engendering ill will and making a mockery of Christmas.
I'm not sure how many of you in the church "presence" group are Christians, but for those of you who are, read your Bible, because it seems like you're preaching a false gospel. This is what Christmas is about: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Yes, oppose the war, but first accept that Jesus died so that you would have eternal life, and everything you have is by God's grace. Sanctify yourselves. Live exemplary lives free from sin and immorality. Help others--feed, clothe, and shelter the poor, comfort the sick and imprisoned, minister to others. Do what you can to effectively oppose the war, even though Jesus didn't directly address that. (Remember also that Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" Matthew 10:34.) Learn God's will through the Holy Spirit, and then live your lives in accordance with His will. Do all of these things. That is what Christ commands us to do. It's easy to pick and choose what's easy, or what you like to do, but that's not an option for us. "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it" (Matthew 7:13-14). It's all in the Bible. Read it!
Those of you in the church "presence" group who are not Christians, read the Bible anyway so you can understand us. (Maybe you'll be saved along the way. :-) Understand that Christianity is NOT your enemy. Rather, certain people are, so focus your energies on them and let us (all of us, Christian and non-Christian) celebrate Christmas in peace.
I prepared the above comments "off-line," but I see that "AWARE 'church presence' is conducive to dialogue!" posted a response to my last post. I don't have anything to add, except that I question how many "people of faith and conscience" are involved in the church "presence" effort if your letter to one of the pastors was edited to remove "faith" and just refer to "people of conscience." Where is the Christian courage in that? Anyway, what you wrote reads like a press release rather than a reply to anything I wrote, but thanks for responding anyway. I'll talk to you again after Christmas. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by LAW or LOVE? More dialogue.......
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
21 Dec 2005
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Stealing Jesus
How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity
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By BRUCE BAWER
"ARE YOU A CHRISTIAN?"
SPRING 1996, NEW YORK CITY. I'm standing on a moderately crowded subway car reading a paperback when I look up to see a man about my age--thirty-nine--who is standing a few feet away and staring at me with disconcerting intensity. For an instant we gaze speechlessly into each other's eyes. I expect him to say (as sometimes happens) that he's read one of my books and recognizes me from my dust jacket photo. Instead he asks me a question.
"Are you a Christian?"
The question takes me aback, though I know why he has asked it. I am reading Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, whose author, the Episcopal bishop John Shelby Spong, is notorious for his denial of many orthodox Christian doctrines and for his work on behalf of an inclusive church. It occurs to me that my interlocutor, whose question marks him as a born-again Christian, has probably noticed the word Bible, which is in large type, and cannot make out the rest of the title.
"Yes," I reply.
"Are you born again?" His eyes meet mine in an unsettlingly intimate gaze.
I pause for a moment. We have entered difficult territory. Am I born again? Eight years ago, after a decade of feeling that one couldn't be both homosexual and Christian, and after a year or so of listening to sermons that had, for the first time, explained Christianity in a way that made sense to me, I was baptized at Saint Thomas Episcopal Church in New York.
Am I born again? I look into the man's eyes. "I think so."
"Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior?"
Another pause. "Yes ..."
"Then you're born again!" he declares conclusively. "Next time someone asks, answer with confidence that you are!"
"Well," I reply, falling into a tone that sounds to me rather stiff and academic in comparison with his unrestrained ardor, "if I sounded hesitant, it's because I consider myself `born again,' but by some people's definition I'm not."
I don't explain that part of the problem for many people, himself probably included, would be that I'm gay. In the kinds of churches whose members are in the habit of describing themselves as born again, being gay is considered utterly incompatible with being Christian. Another part of the problem is that I'm an Episcopalian, a member of a church that fundamentalists and many conservative evangelicals don't consider a legitimate church at all because of what they see as its theological leniency. Nor do I add that the book I'm reading was written by someone who has helped to change the Episcopal Church in ways that would doubtless horrify my interlocutor.
"How long have you been a Christian?" the man asks, his eyes fixed on mine.
"Eight years," I tell him.
He seems delighted by my answer. Why? Because I've been a Christian that long? Or because I became one as an adult, which presumably suggests that, like him, I'm a "born-again Christian" who went through a "conversion experience," and am thus more serious and committed than many nominal Christians? Or because I remember how many years it's been--which suggests that my conversion continues to be an important event for me?
"I've been a Christian for nine years," he says. "I was going to commit suicide and then Jesus Christ saved me. I was filled with the power of the Holy Ghost."
I'm at a loss for words. What can I say in response to this testimony? After all, I'm an Episcopalian. Most of us don't talk that way, especially not to total strangers. "Good for you," I finally say.
When the man gets off the train a few moments later, we exchange a friendly good-bye. The doors close, and the train moves on. Yet the brief conversation haunts me for hours. I'm at once perturbed and impressed by the man's zealotry. Evangelical Christians, fundamentalist and otherwise, can walk up to strangers on the subway, tell them they're Christians, and testify about how they found Jesus. There's something wonderful about that. Mainline Protestants--members of such long-established, moderate-to-liberal denominations as the American Baptist Church, the Disciples of Christ, the Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presbyterian Church, the United Church of Christ, the United Methodist Church, and the Reformed Church of America--don't usually do that sort of thing. And we Episcopalians are probably the worst of all: Some of us are self-conscious about discussing God even in church. A century ago sex was seen as a private matter that simply shouldn't be discussed in public; today our secular society teaches us to view religion in the same way, and most of us unquestioningly oblige.
*
"Are you a Christian'" It's not as easy a question as it may sound. What is a Christian? How to decide who is or isn't one--and who does the deciding?
I probably wasn't more than seven or eight when I first noticed that the word could mean very different things, depending on who was using it. Many of my Protestant relatives in South Carolina routinely distinguished between "Christians"--meaning themselves--and "Catholics." In the middle-class neighborhood where I grew up in Queens, New York, many of my Catholic neighbors made it clear that they regarded themselves and their coreligionists as the only true Christians, and that in their minds everyone else--Protestants, Jews, whatever--blended into a non-Catholic, non-Christian sameness. Among fundamentalist (and many evangelical) Protestants today, such an exclusionary posture toward outsiders is not only alive and well but is a matter of essential doctrine. Fundamentalists, by definition, view only themselves and other fundamentalists as true Christians; conservative evangelicals generally view only themselves, other conservative evangelicals, and fundamentalists as true Christians.
When we speak of American Christians, of course, we may divide them into Protestants and Catholics. (Eastern Orthodox Christians account for only 1 percent or so of the total.) But today there is a more meaningful way of dividing American Christians into two categories. The mainstream media often refer to one of these categories as the Religious Right or the Christian Right and call people in this category conservative Christians; people who fall into the other category are frequently dubbed liberal Christians. The terms conservative Christian and liberal Christian can be useful, but I will try to avoid using them here because they suggest political rather than theological orientation. Generally speaking, to be sure, the political implications are accurate: Conservative Christians tend to be politically conservative, and liberal Christians tend to be politically liberal. But there are exceptions; and, in any event, it needs to be underscored that what distinguishes the members of these two groups of Christians is not politics but their essential understanding of the nature of God, the role of the church, and the meaning of human life. It is not an overstatement, indeed, to say that these two groups, despite the fact that they both claim the name of Christianity, have fundamentally divergent conceptions of the universe.
What, then, to call these two categories? Most Americans employ fundamentalist as a general label for conservative Christians--which is why I've used fundamentalism in this book's subtitle--but in its strict sense the term is too narrow for my purposes. Phrases like traditional Christian and modern Christian are, to an extent, legitimate, for conservative Christians tend to champion tradition and to reject much of the modern science and biblical scholarship that liberal Christians embrace; yet, as shall become clear, it is extremely misleading to suggest that the kind of theology to which conservative Christians subscribe is truly more traditional, in the deepest sense, than that of liberal Christians. Likewise, labels like biblical Christian and Bible-believing Christian, which many conservative Christians attach to themselves, wrongly suggest that there is something unbiblical about the faith of liberal Christians. We might speak of "exclusionists" and "inclusionists," because conservative Christians, unlike liberal Christians, tend to define the word Christian in such a way as to exclude others--including, in most cases, a large number of their fellow conservative Christians.
But it seems to me that the difference between conservative and liberal Christianity may be most succinctly summed up by the difference between two key scriptural concepts: law and love. Simply stated, conservative Christianity focuses primarily on law, doctrine, and authority; liberal Christianity focuses on love, spiritual experience, and what Baptists call the priesthood of the believer. If conservative Christians emphasize the Great Commission--the resurrected Christ's injunction, at the end of the Gospel according to Matthew, to "go to all nations and make them my disciples"--liberal Christians place more emphasis on the Great Commandment, which in Luke's Gospel reads as follows: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
Am I suggesting that conservative Christians are without love or that liberal Christians are lawless? No. I merely make this distinction: Conservative Christianity understands a Christian to be someone who subscribes to a specific set of theological propositions about God and the afterlife, and who professes to believe that by subscribing to those propositions, accepting Jesus Christ as savior, and (except in the case of the most extreme separatist fundamentalists) evangelizing, he or she evades God's wrath and wins salvation (for Roman Catholics, good works also count); liberal Christianity, meanwhile, tends to identify Christianity with the experience of God's abundant love and with the commandment to love God and one's neighbor. If, for conservative Christians, outreach generally means zealous proselytizing of the "unsaved," for liberal Christians it tends to mean social programs directed at those in need. |
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Something to think about this Christmas |
by pro-life anti-war Christian
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
23 Dec 2005
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Posting other people's articles without comment and without critical thinking is NOT dialogue. When you choose to actually address the points that I raise and write your own words in reply, then THAT will be dialogue. I'm making the effort, why can't you?
The article you posted is a fairly incoherent attempt to artificially separate Christians into two groups, the good "liberal" Christians and the bad "conservative" Christians. The author says, "Simply stated, conservative Christianity focuses primarily on law, doctrine, and authority; liberal Christianity focuses on love, spiritual experience, and what Baptists call the priesthood of the believer." This is a crass misunderstanding of conservative Christianity, and gives the impression that conservative Christians are Pharisees and not Christians at all, but then again that's just the author's opinion. If conservative Christians are really like that, I don't like them either, but I know it's a mischaracterization. By his definition, I would be a "liberal Christian," since I believe in a strong and abiding personal faith based on love of God and neighbor, scriptures, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In my view, it's the only way to be.
So, what exactly was the point of posting the article? I see you trying to divide Christians into groups and disparage the groups you don't like. What is the good in that, expecially since you're trying to reach out to other Christians by your "presences." Are you really people of faith? Do you love your neighbor? Think about that this Christmas. |
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You Flunked Trolling 101 and You Want to Blame Us? |
by Dose of Reality
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
23 Dec 2005
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If you hadn't flunked Trolling 101, you'd realiize by now that everyone's figured out you're not really in search of "dialogue" but are simply trolling. BTW, if you would really like to talk with AWARE members, they have a meeting every Sunday at 5pm at the IMC. Except this week, 'tis Christmas. They also maintain email lists, if you're too shy to appear in public.
You name yourself as "anti-war" but you've given us not a single example of what you've done against the war. In fact, it seems like you have no intention of doing ANYTHING against the war, except bitch at people who are doing something. There'd be plenty of evidence by now of what your real views are -- and it's apparent that attacking people who are really against the war is your primary purpose in this thread.
So, what exactly what steps have you taken to oppose this war, other than anonymously sniping at the work of AWARE?
Your roll out of "just war" theory is one very laughable example of where your schtick is just not convincing anyone. "Just war" theory is just something that you'll very rarely find real anti-war people citing, even if they believe in it.
In my case, I do think there are circumstances where people do have moral authority to rise up against injustice, for instance, when a president engages in aggressive war based on lies, spies on his own people, steals elections, and generally acts like he thinks he's king. But you won't see me or most anyone else apply the "just war" standard to Bush attack on and occupation of Iraq. What was probably the world's best known figure who might support a "just war" -- the Pope -- did NOT support this war -- and that was even before we found out the justifications for this war of aggression really were lies and distortions, like many of us suspected. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find any church leader who supported this war, except for the evangelical sycophants of the Republican Party, who seldom seem to find a war the US starts that they can't support.
I won't waste my time taking apart the rest of your artificial contrivances, except to note that another sure sign of trolling is the all-too familiar "Final Comment" post, quickly followed by more comments because you just can't decide whether to keep trolling or not.
Merry Christmas to you, Jack. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by Philip Stinard
pstinard (nospam) hotmail.com (verified) |
Current rating: 0
26 Dec 2005
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Hello, I am “pro-life anti-war Christian.” Most of you in AWARE know me, yet when I write anonymously, you treat me like a stranger, or worse. The person who has been posting uncommented second-hand articles that attempt to divide Christians into artificial groups according to the authors’ prejudices has been particularly unhelpful, and even disrespectful, in that none of what has been posted has been in response to anything I’ve personally, and with a great deal of thought and effort, said or asked. Truly, I was hoping for better than that from AWARE, and truly, I’m disappointed. And Dose of Reality. I'm especially disappointed with you for not reading what I wrote and for realizing that I was not supporting the Just War theory in the least--I was saying that people need to learn what it is so they can argue against it. People in AWARE know what I have done to oppose the war in Iraq. I won't dignify your comments further. However, I will attempt to continue this (so far) one-sided conversation.
From the articles posted in response to my comments, I’m led to believe that the previous poster is either not a Christian, or if they are a Christian, they pick and choose which of Jesus’ teachings they want to follow, and that’s certainly not what Jesus told us to do. Let’s dig into the Bible a little bit. Let’s assume that a Christian would want to do at least those things that Jesus directly told us to do. Turning to John 15:15-17, Jesus is talking to his disciples before his crucifixion: “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.” These verses tell us two things: (1) We are to obey all of Jesus’ commandments, which are considerable, and which I have addressed in previous postings that have gone unanswered, and (2) Those who believe in Him are given the Holy Spirit for our further illumination. Jesus continues (John 14:26-27): “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. Peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.” These are very reassuring words to a Christian, but the Holy Spirit is often mocked by those who do not believe or understand, and even by people who say that they are Christian! These are Jesus’ words, man. Why do you have problems with it, or rather, why do you post articles that ridicule people who believe in it? What kind of “dialogue” are you trying to establish? What kind of outreach could you POSSIBLY do to Christians if you mock their beliefs? This whole church “presence” thing strikes me as being primal scream therapy for your own psychological benefit only, and if you are “people of faith” as you claim to be, how could you possibly be trampling on the beliefs of those who follow what Jesus said, and call yourselves Christian? What does beating up on Christians have to do with being anti-war? You proclaim “Peace on Earth!” as you attack the beliefs of fellow Christians. What kind of peace is that? It’s “peace as the world gives,” not Jesus’ peace.
Let me continue. John 16:2-4 and 8-13: “They will make you outcasts from the synagogue; but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. And these things they will do, because they have not known the Father, or Me. But these things I have spoken to you, that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.... And He [the Holy Spirit], when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” Okay, just a few points to ponder. Jesus says that Christians will be persecuted by people who think that they are serving God. Look into your hearts and think about that. You might think that Christians are persecuting you, but step into the shoes of a true believer, that is, one who accepts all of Jesus’ teachings, not just some of them, and ask yourselves, are you persecuting them?
Moving on, Jesus says that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He will also guide believers in the truth, which among other things, means knowledge of right and wrong. Now, you hear someone like Pat Robertson speak, he says something ridiculous, and then you seem to think that that is the official Christian position. Evidently, you’ve judged ME on this basis. (Otherwise, why would you be talking past me and posting things irrelevant to what I’m saying?) You couldn’t be farther from the truth. Pat Robertson is one of millions of Christians, but he has worldly power, and worldly power corrupts. Try talking to the millions of other Christians who have real power, and you will see that you are mistaken. THAT is dialogue. You haven’t even tried.
Finally I’ll address the “annoying” issue of Christians running around trying to “save” people. If you think you don’t need to be saved, you’re probably most in need of it, but that’s beside the point. Let’s see what Jesus said (Matthew 28:18-19): “And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’” If you purport to be a Christian, you have to accept that Jesus commanded us to go out into the world and make converts. You can’t get around that. If you are a Christian, then I take it that you think that it’s desirable to be a Christian and that it would be nice if others were Christians, too. Well, Christians don’t just grow on trees. They become Christians because someone, either parents, family members, friends, teachers, ministers, missionaries, or even an impersonal Bible tract, told them about Christianity. For a Christian to say that it’s wrong for Christians to try to save others is, well, antithetical to what Jesus taught. Therefore, those of you are annoyed by that practice (judging by the articles you post in reply to my comments) are most likely not Christians, and protesting outside a church claiming to be “persons of faith” is ridiculous in the extreme.
I’ve spent a lot of time writing deeply personal explanations of Christian beliefs in a (up to now) one-sided attempt at dialogue. You have not directly replied to anything I’ve said, instead posting press releases and second-hand articles that are filled with misunderstandings and anti-Christian attitudes. You’re not fooling me with any of this. On the other hand, by forcing me to confront my own beliefs, you have actually strengthened them, and for that, I thank you. I have tons of patience (I can’t say infinite patience, because only God has that :-), so I will probably stick around and reply to further comments of yours, if they are real comments and not spam. By the way, my name is Phil. What’s yours? |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by just a citizen
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 Dec 2005
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In regard to Mr. Stinard's "outing" post, I won't comment on the substance of the discussion. What I would like to point out is that Dose of Reality got it wrong in branding Mr. Stinard as Jack Ryan in disguise. This is the single most depressing aspect of reading posts here. Whenever someone gets out of the box in terms of opinion, someone -- and it's Dose as often as not -- jumps that person as a troll. It's tiresome, annoying, and childish, and it's long past time for Dose to just grow up and learn to live with other people's opinions. |
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Re: Anti-War Demonstrators Peacefully Confront Members of St. John’s Lutheran Church Over Iraq War During ‘Christian Season of Peace On Earth’ |
by wayward
(No verified email address) |
Current rating: 0
27 Dec 2005
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For better or worse, the editors have seen far too many Jack Ryan posts to mistake you for him. |
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